Sex Ed Debunked

Myth #59: Coming out and Religion Don't Mix with Rev. Tracy Mehr-Muska

• Season 3 • Episode 5

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Have you ever felt like you're at the crossroads of your faith and sexual identity? Are you struggling to reconcile the two? Today's episode takes us on the journey of debunking the myth that Coming Out and religion don't mix and we're fortunate to have Reverend Tracy Mehr-Muska, DMin, from Wesleyan University sharing invaluable insights and wisdom. She brings her first-hand experience counseling students who are grappling with their sexual identity within the sphere of their faith. 

We're diving into the heart of Wesleyan University, exploring the dynamics of religion and LGBTQ identity amongst its students. Gone are the days when most students at Wesleyan identified with a religion. In stark contrast, over half of the student body now identifies as agnostic or atheist. In the midst of this shift, we explore how to celebrate both identities without losing hope in finding accepting and supportive spiritual communities. We also stir up the conversation on the relationship between the divine and oneself, and whether a religious community is inseparable from the divine.

Finally, brace yourself as we decode the interpretation and relevance of the Bible in affirming the LGBTQ community. We're thrilled to have Brian Blunt from Union Theological Seminary share that the Bible is a living word, capable of unveiling new understandings. He brings to light Jesus's ministry of radical love and inclusion, which counteracts any form of discrimination. As we wrap up our conversation, we spotlight various faith communities that uplift and celebrate the LGBTQ community and guide on how to identify genuinely inclusive spaces. This episode promises to be a revelation in itself, let's navigate these complex intersections together!

Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational podcast hosted by mother daughter duo, christine and Shannon Curley.

Speaker 2:

Every episode, we tackle a new myth about sex, sexuality and pleasure, and use research and expert insights to debunk stereotypes and misinformation from the bedroom and beyond.

Speaker 1:

In 2022, we won the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists Award for Best Podcast and also managed to not totally freak out our family and friends along the way. We believe in healthy, sex-positive, pleasure-focused sex education, backed by real research and real experience.

Speaker 3:

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter at Sex Ed Debunked or email us at SexEdDeBunked at gmailcom to share your sex miseducation tales and the myths you'd like to hear us debunk.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2:

Hi, welcome to Sex. Ed Debunked a cross-generational podcast about sex positivity, sexual health and my personal favorite rendition of the Bachelor, which is how many of the ex-bachelorettes are now queer Love that.

Speaker 1:

Huge fan of that. Pretty appropriate for a national coming out day huh.

Speaker 2:

It is really great. I really am enjoying the Golden Bachelor. They're like super good. Jerry, You're very cute. You're very 70-something years old. What I'm really loving is the subplot of how many women, specifically who have been on the Bachelor series, are now dating women of the same sex or identifying as queer or whatever.

Speaker 1:

I'm like this is the plot that no one expected, but I'm really here for Didn't there show you already watched that has that kind of a queer bachelorette that you were telling me about?

Speaker 2:

Well, the ultimatum on, netflix decided to do a queer version. I think that they should just do that for every single one of their reality dating shows is introduce a queer version. Although I was saying yesterday to my girlfriend that the show Love is Blind. The premise of it is you spend the days in the pods and you don't see each other until you decide that you want to be together. It's great and whatever. I'm like yeah, but that show would be so much longer if it was lesbians, because lesbians talk for 12 hours on that. Anyway, in one of the episodes this woman goes oh my God, have you ever been on a four-hour date before? The guy and my girlfriend and I both were like yeah, yeah, that's every day we're dating. Yeah, exactly. So I think more is what I'm saying Netflix, if you can hear me more.

Speaker 1:

All right. Well then, this week's episode, we're talking about a subject that we're often brought up on the show Coming Out, which is about disclosure to family, friends or other persons in your life about sexual orientation, gender diversity, maybe relationship diversity. But since this episode is scheduled to air on October 11th, which is National Coming Out Day, we thought we'd discuss Coming Out from a different perspective and debunk the myth that Coming Out and religion don't mix.

Speaker 2:

Which is very similar to the myth we did, I think, a couple seasons ago, which was just the idea of that being LGBTQ and religion don't mix. So a little education as we do. National Coming Out Day was first celebrated in 1988, which actually seems really recent, but over 30 years later it's still on our calendars. It was first celebrated on the one-year anniversary of the 1987 National March on Washington for lesbian and gay rights, which was a day chosen to honor the brave LGBTQ individuals who decided to come out and live openly. It started out as just sort of an awareness event, like hey look, gay people exist. But now the meaning of National Coming Out Day is really, really relevant to the LGBTQ communities themselves.

Speaker 2:

I myself have posted on National Coming Out Day and I think there's varying degrees of Coming Out on National Coming Out Day, whether it's just coming out officially or the yearly reminder to your people like hey, by the way, I identify this way, yeah, it's really important and it can kind of run the gamut right. It can be a really big deal of introducing yourself, it can be introducing your partner, it can be a huge challenge or it can be really easy, and it depends on who you are and where you are in your journey. But the importance of National Coming Out Day, much like Pride Month itself, is just to give folks who identify with an LGBTQ community an opportunity to say who they really are and be honest and truthful about who they are and hopefully feel seen and a part of a community in doing so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, doing a little bit of research for this episode, I actually found some recent articles talking about the difficulty that is still with the older community, because, as we talk about sexual fluidity, we have older folks who have been known a certain way all their lives, which makes coming out even trickier than, say, for a young person. But one space in particular where coming out may still be extremely difficult is around religion and religious communities. Lgbtq folk may have a unique struggle when their church is openly and expressly against who they are and who they love, to the extent of telling LGBT folk they're damned to hell, which, of course, is pretty harsh. Yeah, I don't love that.

Speaker 2:

No, not great. Yeah, I mean it's a fear for a reason. It's one of the most long established spaces where being gay is not okay. I don't know, I've heard it all the time the old Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, but right.

Speaker 1:

Well, and to help us with this discussion, I interviewed Reverend Tracy Merremusca, who's the Protestant chaplain at Wesleyan University who regularly counsel students about coming to terms with their sexual identity and their church, and I chatted with her basically to see what her advice was around religion and LGBTQ and to speak about the idea that sometimes young people feel like they have to well, all people feel like they have to choose between their religious identity and their sexual identity, so she really became the perfect guest expert for this spot. So today we're welcoming a guest who is a reverend at Wesleyan University. I will call you Reverend Tracy, but what is your full?

Speaker 4:

name. I'm Reverend Tracy Merremusca.

Speaker 1:

Well, welcome to the podcast. We're really excited to have you here and I know you're going to provide a wealth of information to our listeners. So first, should I call you Reverend or Tracy? Tracy would be perfect, okay. So, tracy, tell us a little bit about your background as a Reverend.

Speaker 4:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 4:

I'm so excited to be here, christine, and I think I want to start by dispelling one myth about me being an expert, because I am very, very passionate about issues of faith and justice and how they relate, and I also want to acknowledge my location as a cisgendered white woman who's married to a man, and I recognize that I have blind spots related to that identity.

Speaker 4:

But as far as my identity as a minister is concerned, I grew up in a progressive Presbyterian church which was part of the Presbyterian church USA and it was a very affirming and encouraging place. I loved church and when I graduated from high school, I went to the Coast Guard Academy and that was a time for me that was riddled really with difficulty and I also during that time experienced trauma and I realized that my faith for me helped me persevere. It was instrumental in me staying centered, feeling well and being able to get through some very difficult times. So it was because of that recognition of how faith played a role in my well being that when I had an opportunity to go to seminary and make this my full time vocation, that's when I knew I really that's what I needed to do.

Speaker 1:

So it's a really a true calling for you coming from, not just from your whole life experience. So this was not something you weren't raised in a family of ministers, right?

Speaker 4:

In fact I became Presbyterian kind of by happenstance, because it was the church with the best programs closest to my house. So and also I had I was a marine scientist, so really being a minister wasn't even necessarily on my radar screen. But I ended up having a marine scientist dream job and it was so fun and entertaining and it was missing the element of fulfillment. And when I felt most fulfilled was when I was journeying with others who were struggling or were having difficulty and helping them find sources of hope and helping them connect with whatever it was that gave them meaning and purpose.

Speaker 1:

I kind of think that's an interesting dichotomy marine scientist aka reference. Well done, presbyterian. I think you're an expert in a lot of things now I know a little bit about a lot of things.

Speaker 4:

It may be an expert in nothing, but that's okay.

Speaker 1:

It kind of weirdly reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where George said he was a marine biologist.

Speaker 4:

Yes, saying I'm a minister definitely doesn't work as well.

Speaker 1:

So tell us how you ended up at Wesleyan.

Speaker 4:

So I was doing clinical chaplaincy. So I knew from the beginning that I really genuinely felt called to ministry in an interfaith setting to people who were in crisis or experiencing hardship or difficulty. I loved my job. I worked in hospice and then I proceeded to get pregnant and have two children and then took some time off. So along the way a friend said, hey, this job at Wesleyan might be great for you because it's part time and has the summers off, this job and chaplaincy. And I said, oh, that sounds convenient. And I really applied for it initially because it seemed to work well with my schedule.

Speaker 4:

But I immediately fell in love with the students and with the opportunity to help people discover sources of strength and support, to help students figure out who they are, away from their families of origin, and to help people figure out what do they believe. They maybe didn't realize that there were other ways of thinking about faith and belief and life and love and relationships and gender and all of these things. So it's been such a joy to be able to walk with people through those periods of discernment and questioning. So how long have you been at Wesleyan? So I've been. I was at Wesleyan for eight years. I left for a couple of years during COVID to serve a local church and then I my position was open and I reapplied for my position because I really did miss this time, especially after COVID. I think young adults, as many have heard, are struggling. It's been hard for them in some very, very unique ways, so I just felt like it was where I needed to be.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, perfect. Well, I'm so glad you're here. I'm so new at Wesleyan and I was thrilled to meet you, almost like my second week, yeah, so I'm glad to know you're here for everyone. So we are having you on this episode for a reason. It's going to air on coming out day, which is October 11th, national Coming Out of Day, and, as we know, coming out and religion have a very complicated relationship, especially people in certain communities. Religious communities might have issues coming out to family, friends and also community, which is really challenging. So tell us a little bit about the students that you're interacting with these days at Wesleyan and what kind of conversations you have with them about their experience.

Speaker 4:

Cool. Thanks so much. There are a lot of students who do come, and I remember this from my college days too. I remember being shocked that people listen to country music. I'm from Jersey, but people in my neighborhood didn't listen to country music, so I'm from New York. I can't do this. I can't do this. So I think it's just so helping students recognize how much more there is to the world than maybe what they knew growing up. And what that does afford people is an opportunity to really think more openly and more expansively about who they are and how they fit into the world.

Speaker 1:

Now, I know that Wesleyan is considered a pretty liberal university as far as universities go, but are you still hearing concerns from students about their LGBTQ status and their relationship with religion?

Speaker 4:

So I think what is a reality at Wesleyan is it is a very inclusive place and students who are LGBTQAI identified can come here and find a very, very safe and happy place to be, and in some cases that might also liberate them from the need to kind of jive the relationship, if you would, between their religious identity and Wesleyan, because it's very OK to be here and to not be a person of faith. So students will come here and say, ok, I no longer am a person of faith or I no longer subscribe to that because I don't need to or I don't want to, or it's too hard or it's too complicated. And that I think becomes a more common narrative is that people come and they, instead of wrestling with it or finding their place in a safe and a life-giving community, they might just set it aside while they're here. I don't even want to say reject it, but just setting it aside while they're here.

Speaker 1:

Is that different from the experience of students? Maybe that you talked to eight years ago or 10 years ago when you were interacting with students?

Speaker 4:

Historically, I think we would find, especially at a place like Wesleyan, which was a religious institution at one point in its history. Yeah, that's what I mean. It was a method, yes. So students came here with a religious identity and maybe we're then in a place to figure out is this, does this still fit for me, Is this who I am?

Speaker 4:

And now I think we're finding more and more students actually about half of our students self-identify as atheist or agnostic, and they're coming without a tradition and saying is there something that I'm missing? Is there a place I can connect? Is there a spiritual or religious community where I can find belonging and purpose and connection and I can feel connected to something greater than myself? So I do think that there may have been a bit of an evolution that way. I think there are definitely students, though, that, as they set aside their religious identity that they grew up with, it's still part of their being and it's still something that they're wrestling with, even if they're not actively trying to figure out. Where do I fit in with this? How do I reconcile this? And so what I hope to do is have more people engage in that conversation Instead of setting it aside, maybe saying, ok, well, how can these two intersecting identities both be celebrated at once, instead of needing to compartmentalize?

Speaker 1:

That's fascinating because we do talk on the podcast and indeed in psychology, about this concept of intersectionality, where we have different, competing identities and some that are marginalized and some that are privileged, and what I'm hearing you say is that both of these, for some of these students, both of these identities are quite legitimate and things that they care deeply about. But for this period of time at Wesleyan that they consider a safer space or, like I like to say in my class, as a brave space, they're choosing to put that religion aside, but yet they're still coming to you and you still have a job, even though you said 50% are agnostic or atheist. So that, I think, is where your experience with the Wesleyan students can speak to our larger audience on the podcast about how you can find a spirituality even though you might not have a particular religious identity.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely, and my message for your audience is also to not give up hope. The biggest thing I want to communicate to my students is you do not have to choose. There are spiritual and religious communities that will love you and appreciate you for exactly who you are, exactly who you were created to be. And yeah, sometimes finding those communities of faith it's a little bit of work and it's a little bit annoying, and in certain geographic areas it's a little more difficult. I think we're a little spoiled up here in Connecticut. But the reality is those communities exist and they certainly can help people with their resilience, with their holistic well-being, with their sense of belonging and with a sense of hope.

Speaker 1:

So do you feel that students have different approaches based on the religious tradition that they're coming from, or different concerns?

Speaker 4:

Yes. So one thing I often have conversations with students about is this idea that we have two relationships. We have a relationship with the divine in some cases, if we're talking about more traditional paradigms of religion, maybe with God, the language many people use and then, separately, we have a relationship with an institution or with a religious paradigm, and what I invite students to do is try to break those two things apart. For many of us, when we were growing up, those things were completely connected. We can't imagine a relationship with the divine apart from a religious community, maybe that we were a part of, but those are two separate things. So, celebrating that relationship with the divine and then figuring out what are your values, what do you need, who makes you feel safe, and then finding the paradigm, the community, the structure within to which you can plug in and then deepen your relationship with the divine.

Speaker 1:

A lot of these students are really. They're exploring identity on so many different levels, and it sounds like you're asking to explore your religious identity too, and I wouldn't know where to start.

Speaker 4:

It's a hard question and I think the first question I ask basically is who is God to you and how do you relate to God? And you need to know the answer without stopping. Why does it matter? And I think, asking people to reflect on those questions. We hear so often this ideas. I'm spiritual but not religious. I think in some cases those that's those are folks who are saying I do believe there's something bigger than myself and the institutions have been Not a helpful way for me to associate with that right like or to Completely.

Speaker 1:

I mean I am, I am full confession. A lot of our listeners know this. I am from a Roman Catholic tradition Straight through my first 12 years of college. So I took theology, philosophy, and you know, for a large part of my growing up, you know you did have, you know God is a loving God, but then you also have it. You know you do XYZ and you're going to hell an internal demotion. So those things were really hard to coexist and and I think as a result both of both of my Well, you know, I would say my one, my daughter Shannon, I think she would confess to this too is probably in that range of spiritual.

Speaker 1:

My son, I think he's probably more like the 50% of Wesleyan students at this point because you know, being raising Children in the Catholic Church, you are focusing a lot on the institution and the rules, and I'm sure there are other Religions that are similar. But the Roman Catholic Church Certainly has a certain reputation in that area and I'm sure at Wesleyan you do come across students from that background and when we talk about Christianity specifically and we talk about Jesus, the last thing Jesus would do is shame people publicly.

Speaker 4:

And yet our Institution sometimes get in this habit of shaming people, or this Frazeology love the sin and hate the sinner, which I find incredibly offensive. I agree. So, in terms of Christianity, I do have students say well, how my church taught me X. And here this scripture, right here, says this how can you say that it's okay for me to be me and still be Christian if the scripture says this? And I could just spend a Few seconds talking about that Please please, please, listeners.

Speaker 1:

Love, love the nerdy.

Speaker 4:

I'm not an expert on scripture, but here's how I understand scripture to Work in in my life. I think the scriptures related to sexuality are often overplayed, and so I saw that there are over 30,000 verses of scripture. Less than 10 of them deal with same gender sexual activity. Of those, it's specifically about forced sexual relations that have to do with power. So if now, if that's the paradigm with which we're making rules about how of who we can love and who we can marry, that's really limited window, right. Also, I review the scriptures with all of my heart as a Presbyterian, we take them very, very seriously.

Speaker 4:

And also they were written in a specific time in a specific place, in a specific context for a specific population of people.

Speaker 4:

And I think it's also important to remember that there are some parts that are descriptive, that describe what was happening in the time, that are not Proscriptive.

Speaker 4:

Meaning oh, it's not, it doesn't mean that this is the, this is what needs to be happening for the rest of eternity, but for this time and place this is very relevant, besides the fact that it was written and transcribed by human beings who had biases and had their own opinions about things, all men presumably, just aside Presumption, but I really embrace. Brian Blunt of Union Theological Seminary said this in a lecture to that I went to many, many years ago. But it stuck with me that the Bible and I think this applies to other scriptures as well, but I don't, I'm not gonna speak for other religious traditions the Bible is a living word that God can reveal to me new understandings and new interpretations if I prayerfully engage it and I am earnest in my Wanting to understand. I think to say that the Bible is fixed and God can't do anything about it to me limits God's power. So I think it's actually offensive to say that the Bible is literal and one-dimensional and, taking the Bible literally, I get very excited about all this.

Speaker 1:

As a legal scholar, it makes me think like, just like the Constitution.

Speaker 4:

Just one amendment. You could write many books on, but the idea for me is that the Bible and If you are looking to take it literally, it's really hard to do that because there are inherent contradictions Within it that make taking it literally impossible. So what I do tend to do is look at the general themes, especially of Jesus's life in ministry love and justice, hope for the oppressed, radical inclusion and love, and so to me, to discriminate against people for any reason would be Antithetical to what I understand to be Jesus's life in ministry.

Speaker 1:

Well, and it's always ironic that I think that if you know, people have said you know, if Jesus Christ was alive today, he would be shunned as a radical because he was a radical even in his own time and his teaching. So even if, if you're not of the religious faith to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, as is want to say, you're still talking about a man who was preaching something that was really radical and I love how you position that. As you know, radical in inclusivity, radical love, and I assume that's pretty much what you're telling a lot of your students.

Speaker 4:

Yes, and I know from personal experience how damaging shame can be, and and no one should be ashamed for who they are or how they were created, and Because religion has provided some consolation in my life, I want people who are open to Exploring it to be able to access it as well.

Speaker 1:

I think it's really interesting that we talk about so much of this shame and I almost feel like, as a chaplain, it wouldn't be that difficult for you to just like find passages from the teachings that were exactly the opposite, that were so inclusive, that were, you know, letting the leper in, letting the prostitute, you know, wash his feet, like all of these things would say that anytime we act from a position of shame, we are acting contrary to the teachings in the Bible, and I had really thought about it that way of Jesus preaching not shame. I mean, we talk about the love aspect, but the fact that you know not shame is part of it is pretty huge.

Speaker 4:

I think yes and celebrating our belovedness, celebrating the reality that we're all children of God, like these are all things that no one can take away from us, even a leader in a church who has some opinion about same gender relationships. Well, you're so right.

Speaker 1:

There's a difference between the what would you say the divine and the institution. So tell me what kind of concrete advice you give to these students who are coming in looking for looking for a lifeline. It sounds like a way back to some spiritual part of themselves.

Speaker 4:

Yes, well, before I get to that question, I also just want to talk a little bit more about the shame idea, which is another podcast episode altogether about sex positivity in general. Like, when we look at biblical relationships, how hard it would be to apply them to what we're living today. So if I'm a woman who's having fertility problems, my husband, if he were to go and have sex with my best friend and father a few children with her, that would not be okay, right and like that was just totally what used to happen. So trying to apply biblical relationships and biblical mores related to intimacy to the way we live today is just not possible. And when people were getting married, when they were 12 years old, would I say that they should have sex before marriage? Probably not right, but like the fact that people Maybe not get married before 12.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 4:

But if now people are getting married at 35 and 40 or choosing to not get married for whatever reason, to say that they don't deserve intimacy to me seems unreasonable.

Speaker 3:

So anyway, that's a whole different subject.

Speaker 1:

But let's get back to your question about what advice to like. I don't mind going down those rabbit holes, tracy, because I think it's really important, because the more we you know, this is all, this podcast all about sex positivity and trying to let go of what you know the social expectations are, and it kind of goes to your point of like. We shouldn't be looking at the Bible as a literal document. It's not some recipe, how to how you know the rules of life. It's more about the broader themes.

Speaker 4:

Right and it's so life giving and so encouraging and so positive. But if it's read that way, so what advice do I give? I again, I invite people to really look seriously at their relationship with the divine and what that means for them, and and trying to break that away from the institution. And that does not mean that we don't grieve, and that's an important part. There are some communities of faith that you're never going to convince them of all of what I just shared about scriptural authority and context. And to be to leave that faith community is a source of pain for many, many people, so I'm not diminishing that by any means. And also there is an invitation to grieve that and also find a community that uplifts and celebrates who you are, and so I do spend time working with students through that. What does it mean to you know especially as you know a person I don't identify as Catholic, but a lot of times Catholic people do is very much who you are to say, oh, what does it mean for me to say I'm not Catholic anymore or I now attend this other church?

Speaker 4:

So in my Protestant church we had people we call the affiliate members because they were Catholic parishioners who weren't ready to not be Catholic anymore and it was like we didn't care. We're like, we don't care what you call yourself. Be an affiliate member, be a full member, we don't care. It was just an opportunity for them to feel loved and to not feel like they had to give something up or disappoint their great grandmother, who died, or whatever reasons for which we feel connected to our spiritual and religious identity.

Speaker 4:

It is hard to let that go. So that's one piece of advice I give. The second is just talking to students about scripture and what it means to them and invite them to think differently about how it can be interpreted. And also I invite students to enter into spiritual or religious life in kind of safe ways. Okay, and so what does that mean? It could mean the Unitarian, universalist Church, for instance. It is a. It's a church that welcomes everybody. I went to service one time and I have Jewish people there and Christian people there and Buddhist people here, secular humanists here.

Speaker 4:

And you can just be together in community and kind of work through what do I believe and where do I fit in? And it is generally speaking of an amazingly safe place for LGBTQAI identified people.

Speaker 1:

That's Unitarian, universalist.

Speaker 4:

And the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church USA also have open and affirming churches as do the Episcopal Church and other Protestant denominations.

Speaker 4:

One of my students said the other day but how do I know which one? And I think that is a very valid question. So I tell students, you tell me where you're doing your internship or where you're spending your summer and I will send you a list of churches and I can look for those buzzwords on their website about Bible based or scriptures and heresy or other things that I kind of know might make it a place that's less safe. Or I might look for indicators like the congregational church has a designation open and affirming ONA, and I'll be able to look for churches. Well, which ones are ONA churches or in the Presbyterian church, which ones are more like congregations or covenant network of Presbyterian congregations. Those are two designations that churches can have that indicate that they're open and affirming.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So if people were not in, you know we're not going to be emailing you for the information of what church to go to. They're looking for a code called ONA.

Speaker 4:

ONA opened and affirming and the thing that's a little intimidating, but the beauty of live stream services is people really can attend services anywhere, right, so it's.

Speaker 4:

You don't get the community, you don't get that in person singing maybe, or the music or the fellowship but that could be also a safe entryway is to find one of these open and affirming congregations that can be a safe place to land.

Speaker 4:

I also say sometimes it's as simple as looking for a pride flag hanging outside and I think again, in different geographic reasons, different geographic areas, there may be more or less safe to fly a pride flag, but I do invite students to, even as simply as that, as you're driving around town, keep your eye out for those flags and see where those flags are or how there's, how they're celebrating Pride month.

Speaker 4:

For instance, I just spoke to a student the other day who's like it seems so unfair that I have to go through this process to find a place that will accept me and I say, yes, it is unfair. I'm sorry that that is still the reality, that there are Christian churches where LGBTQ, ai people don't feel safe and that sucks, frankly, and there are some that do. So you know. I just hope that students might find that incentive to take that extra effort to say this is important to me and I'm going to do to make this effort, because it takes some work. It takes some work and it takes some vulnerability to find a community that's a good fit.

Speaker 1:

But, tracy, I think you know it's kind of goes right back to the thing you said at the beginning of this interview, that you don't have to choose. It's just going to take a little effort, and I do. You know the whole idea of identity exploration on all levels takes effort to figure out. So I think you're at least telling our listeners that you can do this. If you want to live a spiritual life and live a life closer to the divine, there's a path for you.

Speaker 4:

Amen, we preach it, christine Preach it.

Speaker 1:

We're going to try, because you know it's a myth that coming out in religion don't mix. But they can mix and I think you beautifully gave our listeners some hope, which is, I think, what you wanted to do.

Speaker 4:

Yes, and if I could just end, with a quote, so I wrote it down so I wouldn't get it wrong. 1 John, chapter 4, god is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God and God abides in them. And I believe that that is true. It is truly all about love, and if someone finds love with someone in the same gender relationship, I think the divine is smiling. I think God wants love to spread and God wants love to be shared, and however that happens is a gift.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join the podcast today. I know that it's going to be well received by our listeners and I really, really love talking to you.

Speaker 4:

I'm so happy. Thank you so much for inviting me and I'm just so grateful for the time and for the invitation to be here today.

Speaker 1:

Well, and maybe we'll have you back to talk more about sex and pleasure in the Bible.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you to Reverend Tracy Merremusca for that perspective. Obviously, I was not a part of that interview, so it was really interesting to listen to it after the fact. But you know, I think it just comes back to the idea that, even though it might be difficult to find your place in multiple spaces especially spaces that you know have a long history of being difficult to be yourself in, both religion and in LGBTQ, both spaces that are hard sometimes, I think, to you know really fully find your identity within. There is hope for that and there is a way to find a way to be comfortable with your identity LGBTQ, religious and otherwise.

Speaker 2:

As a side note, there is a great episode about this exact concept in the series Sex Education, which we talk about all the time On this show. But actually a lot of the last season, which just wrapped up, is tackling the idea of identity, sexual identity and religion. So if this is a topic that is of interest to you, I also highly encourage you to watch season four of Sex Education on Netflix. Again, we're just promoing Netflix next week, but it is. It does tackle this exact idea and how to find that sort of harmony between your identities and your life.

Speaker 1:

All right, well, wonderful and, as we like to say, that's another myth, that's a bad one. So thanks to our guests and thank you to our listeners for tuning in and tuning next week for another episode of Sex I Debunked and remember to submit the myths and topics you'd like us to discuss. We want to know what you want to learn about and have a good national coming out there. That's right. Take care everyone.

Speaker 2:

Bye now.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex I Debunked During the course of our podcast. We have limited time together, which means that, unfortunately, many identities, groups and movements may not be represented each week. The field of sexuality and gender orientations, identities and behaviors are changing, growing rapidly, and we remain committed to being as inclusive as possible.

Speaker 3:

Please remember that all of us, including us, are learning in this area and may occasionally slip up. We ask that we all continue to be kind to one another so that we can create a truly inclusive and accepting environment. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us at sexeddebunked on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.

Speaker 1:

Sex I Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in Providence, rhode Island. Our sound producer is Ezra Winters, with production assistance from Shea Weintraub.