Myth #63: Attachment Styles End in Childhood

Imagine if your childhood attachment styles were echoing in your adult relationships - intriguing thought, isn't it? Join us, Christine and Shannon Curley, as we demystify the world of attachment styles and reveal how they're not just confined to your early years. We're cracking open the research, and we promise you'll understand why Gen Z seems to be gravitating towards insecure attachment styles and why it's a trend worth noting.

We're going to navigate the terrain of four primary attachment styles - secure, anxious, avoidant dismissive, and avoidant fearful. We'll show you how these styles are formed during the early years and how they intricately weave into your adult relationships. Equipped with this knowledge, we bet you'll encounter some aha moments regarding your relationship patterns. And if you're curious about what an "insecure attachment style" means, we've got you covered. We also dissect the avoidant fearful style, highlighting the paradox of craving a relationship while being scared of getting hurt.

Ever thought about the impact of your attachment style on your behaviors and communication? We’re throwing light on that too! We stand by the importance of humility and adaptability in communication and believe firmly that it's possible to rise above your attachment style. As we prepare for the holiday season, remember to embrace grace and lean on your secure networks. And yes, we're also debunking myths surrounding sex and sexuality and stressing the necessity of inclusivity in our understanding. So let's challenge conventional wisdom, expand our horizons, and create healthier, more fulfilling relationships. This is going to be a journey of self-discovery you wouldn't want to miss!

Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com

Transcript

Christine: 0:03

Hi, this is Sex. Ed Debunked a cross-generational podcast hosted by mother-daughter duo, christine and Shannon Curley.

Shannon: 0:10

Every episode we tackle a new myth about sex, sexuality and pleasure, and use research and expert insights to debunk stereotypes and misinformation from the bedroom and beyond. In 2022,. We won the American Association of Sexuality Educators, counselors and Therapists Award for Best Podcasts and also managed to not totally freak out our family and friends along the way.

Christine: 0:29

We'll leave a healthy sex-positive, pleasure-focused sex education backed by real research and real experience.

Shannon: 0:34

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter at Sex Ed Debunked, or email us at sexeddebunkedcom to share your sex miseducation tales and the myths you'd like to hear us debunk. Thanks for listening.

Shannon: 0:47

This is Sex. Ed Debunked a cross-generational podcast about sex education, sexual health, and that one time my therapist told me to be more codependent. Yeah, true story. Her words not mine. Yeah, is that what therapists are saying now? It's definitely not, and it's definitely not what they should be saying. I think it was maybe just a bad day, but it will always amuse me that she was like hey, you know that thing. You guys hear about being bad, do more of it. Oh well.

Christine: 1:09

Okay, we'll be calling her out today, like you said, maybe just a bad day, but anyway, on this week's episode, we're covering a topic that is kind of foundational to any relationship attachment style.

Shannon: 1:23

Mm-hmm. So I think a lot of people have heard about attachment styles, but one thing that's important to note right off the bat is that when we're talking about attachment styles for kids and adults, we're talking about different things. So attachment styles for children is about how children and parents interact, and that's like early childhood. And then in adulthood we talk about attachment styles to describe patterns of attachment in romantic relationships, and so there's kind of two takes on attachment styles, but that's all derived from attachment theory right, mom.

Christine: 1:54

Well, it's attachment theory. But essentially what the theory is is your attachment style in childhood translates to your attachment style in adult relationships. So the myth we're debunking today is attachment styles end in childhood.

Shannon: 2:11

Yeah, and even beyond that, some of the research that was kind of inspiring this episode. Not your research, sorry. What was inspiring this episode in kind of current events and current reporting is that that relationship isn't necessarily true. There are things from your childhood that can affect your romantic relationships, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of intervening factors in the middle of childhood and adulthood.

Shannon: 2:33

So something that was interesting that I read about and again kind of inspired this episode is two articles. One was an article that just said the headline was Gen Z has insecure attachment styles. Here's what to do about it as an entire generation. Well, and it said that there was a meta review that said, compared with college students in the late 1980s, a much larger proportion of students today agree that they are quote, comfortable without close emotional relationships and the different factors that they attribute that to are having less time to interact with other people, having less trust with other people, having more things distracting them so they're not as able to focus. And then also, what I found was interesting, no relational practice. Quote unquote.

Christine: 3:14

So yeah, yeah, and the research too.

Shannon: 3:18

And what you think, when you think about COVID being a really easy example, is like you're literally not practicing real relationships with people if you're online all the time, and COVID wasn't the start of this, but it definitely exacerbated it. And then the other article that I saw that was similar said you know, america's in its insecure attachment era was the name, so thanks Taylor Swift for making era a trendy term. But social psychologist Sarah Conrath identified a 15% decrease in secure attachment between 1988 and 2011. So just a lot of interesting modern reports and studies that point to the fact that newer generations are seeing much lower secure attachment styles.

Christine: 3:58

So I think, shannon, before we kind of get into really what each adult attachment style means, I think we need to kind of delve into the real foundational background of how the development and the idea of attachment styles in children kind of came about. Sure, yeah. So back in the old days of social psychology, a sociologist called Mary Ainsworth developed a paradigm to test what she called the strange situation, and what she was looking to examine is how young toddlers reacted when a caregiver left the room.

Shannon: 4:42

Also, I want to contextualize that when we say the olden days, we are referring to the 1970s. It's not, like you know, the 19th century. It was, it was. It was 1970s ago, Sure, but you know, just to be clear, we didn't mean you know, the before times we met, no, no.

Christine: 5:00

But but it's kind of it's kind of old in this in the context of social psychology that there was. The evolution of psychology was so much before that, you know, psychoanalytical and about behaviorism. So social psychology is a relatively new science in psychology. So Mary Ainsworth developed this what she called strange situation and she had children in playing and having caregivers present, and examined how the children would react both when the caregiver left the room and then when the caregiver came back.

Shannon: 5:43

And I believe another element of that was a stranger entered the room, not just with the child, with the parent there too, but testing that bond to between a stranger parent and child Right.

Christine: 5:54

But the primary aspect in terms of attachment style was looking to see how the child reacted when the parent was in the room, how the child reacted when the parents left and how the child reacted when the parent came back. So secure attachment pretty makes sense. So the cure attachment actually, because the mom, caregiver is seen as a secure base, the baby actually or toddler actually gets upset when the, when the child, when the mom leaves or caregiver leaves, but on return almost immediately calms down. So that describes somebody who is secure, kind of venturing out and coming back, because they always know that someone's going to come back. The second style that was observed was a style called avoidant and insecure and that would be a child that when whose caregiver is not emotionally available. So that would be the child who didn't even notice when the caregiver left the room.

Shannon: 7:03

And another aspect of that again because part of this was bringing a stranger into the room is that they don't really show any preference for their caregiver over a stranger, Exactly.

Christine: 7:14

The third style that they looked at was something called anxious and insecure, and that child was clingy. That's the one who was anxious and clinging to the caregiver when they were leaving the room Very, very guarded around strangers and also when the caregiver returned, would be angry and upset.

Shannon: 7:39

Interesting and so like. From you know I get. Obviously you've done the research and you have your perspective on this. So your point of view why is it that they're not comforted when the parent returns?

Christine: 7:49

Because they are, the parent has not provided enough of a secure base. So that would be a parent who perhaps might be inconsistent in relationship, inconsistent in attention, consistent in caregiving. So that requires this whole anxious like come back, come back, because there's no trust and security that the caregiver is going to come back.

Shannon: 8:16

Yeah, yeah that makes sense.

Christine: 8:18

And then there's a fourth right the fourth one is called, has been termed as disorganized, which is kind of that. It's actually like almost like inconsistent to the nth degree, in the sense that that caregiver might shower with affection and gifts and then on the next day completely ignore that, ignore that child and, as a result, the child's reaction in the situation is kind of all over the place and a little bit unpredictable, which is why it's called disorganized. Yeah, and attachment styles in children.

Shannon: 8:55

And another interesting thing about the disorganized attachment style is that it's one of the ones where they track more changes and this is just based on some of the research I did but they track more changes based on the age of the child. So for a lot of attachment styles in children you kind of witness it throughout their lifespan and then they go into adolescence and maturity and then they transition sort of into the romantic. But for the disorganized attachment style they're different at age one maybe, then they are at age five, then they are at age six, and that's because of the way that their relationship with their parents shifts so much more seismically really than the other attachment styles do. There is more consistency in the other three attachment styles and then the inconsistency is mirrored more throughout the years. With a child who has a disorganized attachment style Exactly.

Christine: 9:43

So the disorganized one is kind of the one that I think researchers are having the hardest time really defining, because it is disorganized, right.

Shannon: 9:52

So that's childhood, and while it is important to note that you're not necessarily stuck with it forever which is part of what our myth is to debunk today the research does indicate that those patterns that are established in childhood do have an impact on adult relationships.

Christine: 10:08

They could, and that was John Volby and continued Mary Ainsworth research in adult attachment styles and looked at to see and looked researched longitudinally to see how the attachment styles and children would create would translate to an adult emotional relationship. And honestly, shen, that's what we hear when we hear, when you read articles like that and they're saying Incasive, insecure Attachment. They're not talking about Gen Z having insecure attachment as children, they're talking about having that attachment style in their adult relationships.

Shannon: 10:43

And I want to say, just even fundamentally, part of the reason. So we briefly touched on the research that Gen Z has more insecure attachment styles and whatever. Fundamentally, the reason why this is problematic or scary or disheartening is because this attachment, the ability to make emotional bonds to individuals and form meaningful relationships, is a basic component of human nature. It is important, it is one of the most important hierarchical needs is relationship building.

Christine: 11:13

Exactly. And the other thing too is it's interesting as, in terms of defining it, in adult attachment styles actually the language is slightly different than the languages that are used and which is kind of surprises me, like I think it's a little insecure. Attachment is something that you'll see in journalistic writing because it's easier to understand, but the terms that are used in social psychology are still trying to track those childhood attachment styles. So obviously in adults you start with with secure, like, and let's just say off the bat that you know. You looked at the percentages. What's the current percentage of just secure attachment style?

Shannon: 11:54

55% of adults. Report has secure attachment.

Christine: 11:58

Okay, so that's over half, which is good, and what secure attachment means that is essentially, these are people who enjoy long-term relationships, have a lot less trust issues because they've experienced trust in their childhood, and they also have greater self-esteem, enjoy interacting with other people and also know how to reciprocate feelings, which is kind of an important element when we're talking about adult relationships, especially adult romantic relationship.

Shannon: 12:32

Yeah, yeah, and we'll get into it in more detail. But of course you can kind of see the immediate connection between the disorganized attachment style and that right, because if that's constantly inconsistent then it's gonna be very hard for you to consistently reciprocate feelings.

Christine: 12:46

Right, right. So what? We I mean we all strive to a secure attachment style, basically because we want our relationships to be healthy. The next one that you hear a lot about and I find, actually that you hear so much about it that you think it is the majority which is the anxious, preoccupied attachment style. Yeah, that's the anxious person that's clingy. That's the anxious person that's overly dependent. That's the person who doesn't get a text back in 63 seconds and freaks out.

Shannon: 13:19

yeah, Okay. And again though the text back and forth, Yep, and attaching that pattern to sort of the evolution of the style. When they're a kid, they're not comforted when their parents return. Even though their parent comes back or their caregiver comes back and expresses love and affection again, the child still holds on to that feeling of abandonment or that feeling of being left behind. So in adulthood, the way that that can manifest is feeling distraught or feeling freaking out because your partner disappears for a few minutes or a few hours, or whatever it is.

Christine: 13:51

And that's an important facet, Shannon, One of the things that's very common is being overly concerned with the relationship itself and being overly concerned about what their partner thinks of them. So if this is a style, it's gonna feel very maybe threatened. If you have other friends that you talk to, that you confide in and feel like, well, how does that reflect on me? And it does come from that lack of secure base and you can see how that translates from childhood to adult relationships.

Shannon: 14:26

Yeah, it also kind of feels like that self-fulfilling prophecy of being afraid of coming close to other people, worrying all the time about their reciprocation of feelings being very stressed out when communication isn't reciprocated or whatever. If you put too much weight into all of that, then, yes, your relationship won't work. But is that a chicken or an egg thing, right?

Christine: 14:47

right. It's almost like your behavior is gonna create the behavior you're afraid of Right, but you're also 100% correct that this is only 20%.

Shannon: 14:57

Of people actually have anxious attachment styles, but it's the one that is talked about the most in media, especially yeah yeah, and another one I think that's talked about, probably the next most, is the idea of this avoidant dismissive.

Christine: 15:12

This is your classic I don't want any commitment, I don't want any attachment.

Shannon: 15:17

I don't need any relationship. This is your stereotypical, non-committal male TV bro, and it's not his fault, but this is the style that is most frequently attributed to I don't want a relationship. I'm just the hot bartender and I can get anyone I want. Well, sure, when we really talk about it, my mother never loved me, but I'm still just a cool guy.

Christine: 15:39

Well, stereotypes aside, the research actually does support that individuals with this avoided, dismissive style do tend to be more interested in casual sex. Casual attachments tend to engage in riskier sex, taking those types of behaviors kind of to the nth degree, and the idea is that they have difficulty with close and intimate relationships. They don't know how to share emotions and feelings and they kind of are a parade of the idea of actually being dependent on anyone else.

Shannon: 16:14

You know, what's funny is this just reminded me of the movie called how to Be Single, which is the flip side of romantic relationships or, in that case, lack thereof.

Shannon: 16:24

But there is a character in the movie how to Be Single that again, basically, is exactly who I was just describing.

Shannon: 16:31

Is this bartender who enjoys casual sex because he doesn't like there's attachments and he has this whole. He has this whole plan, this whole strategy, where he doesn't keep more than one cup in his house because he doesn't want a woman to be able to get herself a cup of water and he turns the water off so that she can't shower there. Like he says this whole thing and it's wild, but it's all about, you know, doesn't want to share his feelings or his thoughts or his emotions, so he just like, makes it about casual sex and the first time that he actually connects to someone he kind of freaks out because avoiding attachment is his style. And all of a sudden, when he can't avoid someone, he's like well, I guess this is it, I guess we're in love, I guess we should get married. And she's like just because you're finally working through your attachment style doesn't mean that you and I are supposed to be, which is weirdly a kind of smart and profound point to come out of the movie how to Be Single.

Christine: 17:23

Yeah, very profound for a rom-com.

Shannon: 17:26

Truly though you know and it's, he's a bartender and that you know one of the things that the research will say about this attachment style is that sometimes it's the people who overwork themselves, like work really late hours and have really crazy schedules, because they'll blame the lack of, you know, connection and the lack of emotional vulnerability on not having the time, which, again to kind of go back to that article about Gen Z that's one of the factors they pointed to with the quote unquote insecure attachment style was I don't have time to develop those relationships, so well, and that's why I think, shannon, that when they're talking about the insecure attachment, I really think they are talking about this avoidant dismissal.

Christine: 18:01

Totally, totally. Yeah, I give, I don't have time for a relationship. I don't want to be dependent on anyone else. I'm pursuing my whole life goals and you know what? I can have some fun on the side, but I don't really run a relationship. So one more attachment style to cover that kind of flows from that disorganized attachment style we talked about with regard to children is this idea of avoidant and fearful. So this is like the kind of imperfect mix of you know, someone who actually wants a relationship but it really has no clue how to go about it. So they have the negative opinion of themselves as the anxious person would. They have distrust of other people. They do want a relationship, but they don't know how to go about it and they're afraid of getting hurt. So that's just like, wow, that's a lot going on.

Shannon: 18:54

Yeah, it's a lot, but it's also. You know what that translates to is. This is often the person who tends to think that they don't deserve that relationship. They tend to think that, you know, they have a deficit that makes it hard for them to sustain that kind of relationship. So that's the kind of flip side of it is they are not great at developing relationships in a super organic or natural way, because their relationships when they were children weren't developed in a super organic and natural way.

Christine: 19:23

The biggest difference between the dismissive and the fearful is that the fearful folk actually want a relationship. They just don't know how to get from point A to point B because they haven't had that modeled and it's part of their upbringing.

Shannon: 19:35

Yeah right, I mean that's. It's trust issues. It's like a huge, huge trust issue, complex. That makes a lot of sense, given the upbringing, and I think it's fair to say it's the one that has kind of the least research around it, because it's the smallest percentage. It's only 5% of people fall into that category according to, like, the modern studies on it, but it does seem like it does seem like the relationship between childhood and adulthood, with that style in particular, makes a lot of sense. Well, there is work that needs to be worked through.

Christine: 20:07

I wonder, shannon to, if those numbers are a little low when you think of the research that is out there that describes that. Your full avoidance style they're really looking at people who have internal conflict sounds to me like more than 5%. The overly dramatic in the context of relationships seems like might be more than 5% and unpredictable in relationships. So you know, those numbers I think are you know, these are all just like general estimates anyway, but it's important I think, and part of the reason we're talking about this on the podcast, is to be aware that these attachment styles are actually valid, research based ways that people approach relationships which are not necessarily completely like quote unquote their fault. They're the result of certain patterns. Because they're result of patterns, that means these patterns can be changed if you want to change them.

Shannon: 21:09

Yeah, I mean in the last example, love bombing is something that's really associated with the fearful attachment style, which makes sense because it's I think we've talked about it on the show before but it's that whole slingshot theory where if you pull too far in one direction it goes all the way in the other. So you're afraid, so you pull back in one direction, then you'll launch it and you love bomb. But the thing about that is like OK, if you're having disorganized attachment style and you love bomb, ok, love bombing was wrong, but there are parts of that that are still progress. There are parts of your willingness to develop a relationship like you don't want to love bomb, obviously, but to your point, within every style of attachment there are ways to work through that attachment, especially by acknowledging the sources. Now, by the same token, you can't just blame your parents if you end up having an attachment style. That's not great in adult relationships, because you do have the ability to work through those things if you identify the problem.

Christine: 22:03

That's critical, shannon, because I do think there are a lot. I see a lot of stuff on various Facebook groups that I'm a part of that are just like, well, I'm anxious attachment, that's what I am, and it's like, well, no, you can understand that you're starting from that point. But research does show that relationships impact the next relationship. You can tell a partner, hey, I've come from an anxious attachment style that I'm really worried. Can you text me more often? Can you give me words of affirmation in the words of love languages? Can you do these things to help me along and to meet somewhere in the middle, and hopefully there's an opportunity to grow into a more secure attachment style.

Christine: 22:50

But it does just like we talk about all the time on the show. A lot of it has to do with with one, self-awareness and two, being willing to communicate that to a partner. And three, a partner who is willing to be receptive to it. You know who's willing to put in the work to kind of meet in the middle at some point. Obviously a lot easier if you're working with one of the partners that has a secure attachment style. A little bit more complicated when you're dealing with two of the other. You know one of the other styles.

Shannon: 23:19

Yeah, I saw an interesting post today and it's funny because I saw this post after we had already, you know, decided to do this episode and it was actually about five steps for building a secure relationship, and it was from Queer Sex Therapy, which is another. I think they have a podcast, but they also have an Instagram and whatever. And one thing that I found really fascinating was it said that one of the best ways to build a secure relationship is to not get trapped in new relationship energy in NRE, which we've talked about on the show before. But it says new relationship energy offers the guise of security, which can make it that much more distressing when we start to feel anxious as hell a few months in because you basically tricked yourself into thinking everything was great and then it's like well, the truth is, after a few months, your attachment style is going to come out, whether it's the best relationship or the worst relationship or whatever.

Shannon: 24:11

So some of the pieces of advice that they gave were one be a little bit inconvenient. When you have NRE, you kind of can find yourself being super adaptable and flexible. So you break your own boundaries because you're excited, but hold your boundaries and even though it might be like you want to spend all that time with someone. It's going to be more secure for you in the long run if you adapt to your usual boundaries and your usual thresholds versus being hyper flexible and building that as the expectation for your relationship. That's excellent advice.

Christine: 24:41

Actually, we do tend to make a lot of space for a new relationship and along those lines, before you go on to the other recommendations, I want to point out there's a very I think it's actually a bestselling book in the polyamorous world Consensual Nominongamine World called Polysecure by Jessica Fern, and that's actually what she talks about is you have to maintain your existing relationship even when NRE happens, and it's interesting that you have this blog post here that's kind of saying the same things in the context of kind of a monogamous relationship, like maintain your relationships with your friends, maintain your relationship with your family, maintain your relationship with yourself. Don't put everything else aside for the new relationship.

Shannon: 25:32

No, exactly, and you hit it on the head because the first one was being convenient Don't just spend over backwards for your partner, and that was kind of the first one. But the next one is schedule alone time. Make sure you're still spending time with yourself so that you don't lose yourself. Yeah, keep your friends involved. Don't knock your friends out of the picture. One of the things that's interesting about that even just the last couple of things that I just listed off is when we think about stereotypically kind of what an unhealthy or an abusive relationship is, a lot of times the things associated with that are they isolate you from your friends, they isolate you from yourself. So, okay, on the opposite side of that, don't relinquish those parts of you. Stay in touch with those parts of you. And then, well, one thing kind of on the flip side of that which I thought was lovely is you're maintaining your boundaries. Don't be hyper flexible. Be a little inconvenient. Make sure you're still looping in your friends, you keep those circles going, but build rituals with your new partner. If that ritual is you go to the movies once a week, or you make dinner once a week, or whatever it is, you can't do that, or you make dinner once a week or whatever it is, or you grab a drink once a week, whatever it is, that makes sense for you, if you establish a ritual that gives you security, even when there are things that you are not secure about.

Shannon: 26:35

So, and then the last one, that's very smart advice, very smart advice. Well, and what I liked about this post and again it's queer sex therapy but what I liked about this post is that the last tip was to know what you don't know, like stay humble, and you're not going to know everything about your partner. There's going to be things that come up, there's going to be surprises. Same thing goes for you. It goes both ways. But if you maintain your sense of self and your independence a little bit and you have your boundaries and you stay true to your thresholds, but you also establish new rituals and new scheduled things with your partner, then in a perfect world, ideally, even as you get hit with the things that you don't know, there will be enough that you do know that you can still feel secure.

Christine: 27:12

Yeah, yeah, that's really great advice and I would like underline that advice even more that if you are a person who is fortunate enough to recognize in yourself that you actually have a secure attachment style, be sure to give grace to a potential partner that might not be coming from that background.

Christine: 27:30

And as you learn more and more about a new person, you tend to learn more about their family and their upbringing and what types of past experiences they've had with other relationships. And, as I've said, it's not just childhood, it's past relationships that inform the next one. And it's up to you in some ways, to you know, if you are a bit more secure, to kind of help that other person along and recognize it and maybe even ask the questions that need to be asked, especially if you think that you know your potential partner might be one of the avoidant, dismissive ones. I think you might want to find that out kind of early on, before you realign your entire schedule to accommodate this person who might not actually want to be into that type of relationship anyway, you know, yeah, so there's a lot of this is about awareness and like communication, like you said.

Shannon: 28:24

Yeah, no, it's interesting and it's funny. You know, looking at the different studies, depending on what study you look at, somewhere between 55 and 70% of participants say that their attachment style is still what it was when they were a child, and then like 30-ish percent say that it's changed. But just because you identify with a certain attachment style does not mean that you cannot move beyond that attachment style or learn to be flexible within your attachment style or, as you were pointing out, just kind of like making the changes and the upgrades basically you need to make to maintain a healthy relationship and we talked about this before the episode. But it's similar to like a love language you might have a certain language but you can be flexible with that and you can be flexible with which language you speak to your partner and they can be flexible with the language they speak back.

Christine: 29:10

You know, and I think another thing to point out to everybody is you know we all do want healthy, secure relationships and I think for those people who are in anxious, preoccupied and avoidant and fearful in particular, part of this is cultivating that you deserve that secure relationship, totally Believing that you can get there and believing that those relationships are possible for you. Because I think what troubles me when I see so many people posting about I'm anxious, I'm avoidant, like they think that that is who they are and that's what they're stuck with, and part of that is then believing that maybe you're not entitled to a beautiful, healthy, secure relationship and we're all entitled to that and we're all entitled to have that feeling of security and trust and intimacy in our relationships.

Shannon: 30:04

Yeah, I mean it wouldn't be a sex-debunked episode if we didn't mention food or sports. So I'm going to go with food on this one. You know, you can know, that you are sensitive to dairy, but that doesn't mean you don't get to pop a lactate and enjoy some cheese every once in a while. You can be aware, without being doomed, that's true.

Christine: 30:23

You can be aware of it and you can make accommodations in relationships. That just because you're a lactate intolerant doesn't mean you don't get to eat. You can still have beautiful, you can still eat, right. That's what milk is for, that's right. I love, actually, that actually works. That you can still have a gourmet, you know, beautifully cultivated meal, even though you have this one thing that might impact the fact that you can't have cheese, which is, of course, very, very simple, which is, of course, a tragedy, so sorry.

Shannon: 30:56

Now, while we're on the subject of things that are funny, I did want to mention two additional studies that I stumbled across in my research for this episode that just kind of made me laugh. One of them is that there is also a relationship between attachment styles and people being attached to their pets. Yeah, yeah. So, to no surprise, the anxious attached pet owners exhibit a heightened need for proximity and concern about losing their pets, while avoidantly attached owners seek independence and fear the loss of personal autonomy for things like having to get home to take care of their dog. So I didn't go this deep into the research, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that dogs are probably the better pet fit for the anxious attached and avoid attached and cats would be avoided.

Christine: 31:48

Avoidant attached.

Shannon: 31:49

Yeah, and I guess if you're really self, I guess if you're really secure, you can just have something like a turtle that is there when you need it and is it going to make you feel?

Christine: 31:58

better. So, as you know, we have two cats and a dog. What does that say about our attack? Maybe?

Shannon: 32:03

you're secure. Maybe it evens out. We'll have to look into more research on that and let you know, but I did find that very funny and then, kind of tying into that initial research that we talked about about Gen Z and whatever, there is a study that came out recently about attachment styles influencing the tendency to form emotional bonds with smartphones, which individuals with anxious attachment styles tend to form stronger emotional bonds with their smartphones. They're also more likely to use social media. Interestingly, though, secure attachment folks also use social media a lot, and that's because, to them, it's an extension of their secure interpersonal identity.

Christine: 32:41

They use it differently. They use it very differently, right.

Shannon: 32:44

They use it in different ways. But I did think it was interesting, if not mildly disturbing, that there is enough research to have a study with actual support for the relationship between your phone and your attachment style. But then again, not surprising at all, because we have a lot of research about things like cell phone brain drain and the way that your cognitive energy is drained by your attention to your cell phone. I make myself feel better about it by thinking my phone's just my friend.

Christine: 33:09

Well, let's see along those lines. However, last week we talked a little bit about the new research from the sexuality conference I went to. There was actually some research presented about attachments with models who do video camming and actually talking about the feelings of in a positive way, as a little step forward for people who have avoidant dismissive styles or avoidant fearful styles to start developing relationships. As we talk about these articles that say Gen Z is insecure because they don't have the relationship skills, there's actually a little bit of developing research saying that interactions with webcam models and stuff is actually, weirdly, a step in the right direction because they're actually interacting with live humans.

Shannon: 34:03

That reminds me of the movie her, her, the movie her with Maquin Phoenix and kind of I mean Walk in Phoenix yeah, he's just walking right along. But similar like yeah, she's a voice on a phone, but she teaches him a lot more about relationships and feeling heard. Ultimately, the attachment doesn't work out super great. Spoiler alert. But there is something to be said for even temporary secure relationships, still helping you make your way towards a secure relationship.

Christine: 34:32

Yeah, and these webcam models actually, you know, the better ones, the ones who have a more successful career, actually cultivate how to communicate and develop a connection with people. That the research suggests is not entirely fate, that it actually is grounded in a need to create a connection. Whether it's the deep level of intimate connection that the viewers think they're getting, that's questionable. But there actually is a motivation to create connection, because creating connection with clients brings the clients back and brings them back in and watching, but not in a necessarily negative or nefarious way, something that the research is suggesting could potentially be a positive thing.

Shannon: 35:18

So, yeah, Well, this one this reference goes out to my millennial listeners out there but ever since, you know, napoleon Dynamite and Kip and La Fonda met online and established a beautiful relationship and things got pretty serious. I've always believed in the power of building a secure attachment through the internet.

Christine: 35:37

Well, you know, media literacy, it's a thing, it's important.

Shannon: 35:41

It's important. So that is it for the episode on attachment styles. You know we're going into the holidays. You're going to be around your family. You're going to be around the people that maybe I don't know did this to you. That's kidding. Give them some grace, but also give them some grace. We know it all is joking aside. I mean, the holidays can be a really tough time for a lot of folks, especially our LGBTQ community. So give yourself some grace, give yourself some patience and lean on the secure networks you do have in your life and that'll all help you towards building secure attachment.

Christine: 36:14

Very well framed. Shannon, Lean on your secure people. So I guess we need to say that that's another myth Night night, sleep well.

Shannon: 36:27

Attachment style Actually, that reminds me. My attachment style is definitely that I still have my baby blanket on my bed, which I think is normal, because I know at least four people that do that. I still have T yeah, see, there you go. I got butter.

Christine: 36:39

We're all, we're good, we're good, yeah, he still has Teddy. So we're all there. So we're there, yeah.

Shannon: 36:47

So thanks for joining us this week with another study session. We are wishing you a happy, healthy holiday season with the people who make you feel the most secure and most loved. If you've got any other myths you'd like us to debunk or topics you'd like us to cover, you know where to find us at Sex Ed Debunked on all the socials, or shoot us an email at sexeddebunkedcom.

Christine: 37:04

Take care everyone. Happy holidays. I know Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex Ed Debunked During the course of our podcast. We have limited time together, which means that, unfortunately, many identities, groups and movements may not be represented each week. The field of sexuality and gender orientations, identities and behaviors are changing and growing rapidly, and we remain committed to being as inclusive as possible.

Shannon: 37:35

Please remember that all of us, including us, are learning in this area and may occasionally slip up. We ask that we all continue to be kind to one another so that we can create a truly inclusive and accepting environment. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us at Sex Ed Debunked on Instagram, facebook and Twitter.

Christine: 37:55

Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in Providence, Rhode Island. Our sound producer is Ezra Winters, with production assistance from Shea Winter.