Semester 3 Kickoff and Dissertation Recap

Hey listeners! Shannon and Dr. Christine M. Curley here, and we're back to kick off a fresh semester of debunking and discussing. In this episode, we celebrate Brazil's monumental stance against homophobia and give you a sneak peek of what's ahead this season....Oh, and while we're on the topic of achievements, let's not forget Christine's newly minted Ph.D. title. And, as her granddaughter lovingly puts it, she's also known as "Dr. Grandma Chrissy".

We then Dive into our discussion on the empowering Netflix's "Heartstopper" and the upcoming delights of "Sex Education". We'll also delve into Christine’s research, shedding light on the positive impacts of a healthy sexual outlook on psychological well-being. From pop culture to academic insights and essential advocacy, we've got an exciting journey ahead. Let’s navigate the fascinating world of sexuality together!

Shannon:
Hi, and welcome back to a new semester of Sex Ed Debunked, the cross-generational podcast about sex positivity, sexual health, and Brazil's, Brazil, Brazil's recent legislation

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Thank you.

Shannon:
that makes homophobia illegal.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yay!

Shannon:
It is about damn time one of these countries does something positive for the LGBTQ community, because I gotta tell ya, it's been rough out there.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
something may be trending in the right direction, and good job, South America.

Shannon:
Yeah, hey, thanks guys.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So we're Christine and Shannon Curley, and we're bringing you a whole new season full of new myths to debunk, more study sessions, and expert answers to your most burning questions.

Shannon:
including what that burning feeling might be. Yikes.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Did you just say that Shannon? All right.

Shannon:
I did.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Instead of thinking of burning that way, let's reframe it as questions

Shannon:
Refrag and

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
that

Shannon:
rebrand

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you've been curious

Shannon:
reposition.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
about. Yes. Questions you've been curious about, but might not know where to turn, turn to us.

Shannon:
Woohoo!

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
During the summer hiatus, I officially defended my dissertation and I am now officially Dr. Christine Curly.

Shannon:
but more importantly, as your granddaughter says, Dr. Grandma Chrissy.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
much more important.

Shannon:
Much better, much better title.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I agree. So I'm excited to be kicking off a new semester with a PhD next to my name. And a bit later in this episode, I will talk more about my dissertation because I think it's relevant to a lot of us, probably all of us actually. So hold on tight and we'll give you some more details in a bit.

Shannon:
Yeah, we'll get into that because we're kind of in the spirit of catching up this episode. Obviously, we've taken a break over the summer, which we hope you all did too. But we will catch you up on that dissertation, including some of the feedback, responses, questions that it's created for us. But in the meantime, new title, same show, all back on the scene, but with new guests and topics. And while we're playing catch up, I wanted to highlight a few ongoing in popular media. Folks might not be aware of, first of all, the new season of Heartstopper came out like a month, month and a half ago or so. And it is even better than the first season, I would say. So the show's on Netflix. It's about coming out. It's about being a teenager. It's about bisexuality, which doesn't get talked enough about in popular media. And also is about the importance of queer community, which is a really nice sort of thing to see representation for. A lot of times these shows are just kind of talking about the individual experience, but Heartstopper does a really good job of. talking about the importance of community in that experience, which we've touched on many times

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
many

Shannon:
on

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
times

Shannon:
sex

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
and

Shannon:
ed.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I have to say I need to put that on my list. You're obviously you've mentioned it to me a number of times, but so have other students in my classes have said, I need to tune into that. So since it's on Netflix, that's a good late night thing to be watching. And I encourage parents to be watching that. And other, it's not just a teen show. It's a show that really shows, gives a whole background as you've told me Shannon, is that it's well worth it for everyone to watch.

Shannon:
It

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Much

Shannon:
is, and

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
like.

Shannon:
also Olivia Coleman, as in Academy Award winner Olivia Coleman,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Mm.

Shannon:
plays the lead characters, very affirming and supportive mother. So again, kind of echoing that for parents, it's a really good model for how to react and cope and transition when your child comes out in any capacity. Also on Netflix, which we are of course big fans of on this show, Netflix just announced the fourth and sadly final season of Sex Education.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
But I'm excited there's a fourth season because I really thought after watching the third season that they had kind of wrapped it up. It looked like they tied up a lot of loose ends and it was pretty, it was a pretty wild season finale. So

Shannon:
Well,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I

Shannon:
it looks like this season

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
am.

Shannon:
is going to look at Otis going off to university,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Great.

Shannon:
continuing to peddle his free sex therapist services. But what that does mean is that it is the fourth and final season, and so the only parent-kid duo you'll have teaching you sex for the time being after that is gonna be us. He's reading it.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So keep tuning in, folks.

Shannon:
Also in the last few months, our NB singer Janelle Monae, who I'm obsessed with, released their album, The Age of Pleasure, and it is a-

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Love that, love that.

Shannon:
The title alone is great, but it is all about body empowerment, sex positivity. It's great music, also very catchy, and it's well worth the Spotify download. Also I'm seeing Janelle Monae in concert in New Orleans in October, so I will of course post to our socials about that. But check out the album and check out the music videos. It's really exciting and really fun. And also more sex toys than I've ever seen featured in a music video ever. Just tons of dildos, which is hilarious. So check that out.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I assume of various shapes and sizes.

Shannon:
Various shapes and sizes, exactly.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Equal opportunity sex toys. It would be

Shannon:
Right,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
very diverse.

Shannon:
leave it to Janelle Monae to make sure every sex toy is represented.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
All right, I'll have to tune into that as well as soon as I have a chance to divert my attention away from my studies at the moment. Because...

Shannon:
I think you could play it for your class. I don't think anyone would be opposed to seeing Janelle Monae booty pop in at a summer pool party with her friends.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
If you could recommend one specific song that I could have playing at the beginning of my human sexuality class Well, all the students stream in that would be fantastic

Shannon:
Hmm, probably not champagne shit, but I'll get back to you.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Thank you for that. Okay. Thanks for that. I'm pointing that out. Shannon mentioned at the top of the episode about legislation in Brazil. That's very positive, outlawing homophobia. I want to just take one minute to get serious for a second. There is actually spending legislation in front of our own US Congress pending right now. And what that means is Congress has returned to its session to do these appropriations. And some of you may have heard about the spending bill and the potential lockdown and yada, yada. But what's important to us as sex educators and people who care very, very deeply about sexual health, especially of young people in this country, is they are looking, the house, who of course wants to cut spending, is looking to eliminate complete funding for the teen pregnancy prevention program.

Shannon:
Yikes.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yes, yes. Looking to keep the funding for adolescent health at previous levels, but obviously eliminating the teen pregnancy prevention program is a pretty serious discussion point and could really detrimentally impact the reproductive health and sexual health of young people. So please find your representatives in the House, your representatives in the Senate, and simply send like a a two-word, a one-sentence, two-sentence email to them. Speaking to people that I know have worked with senators' offices, an email, a two-sentence email makes a difference. As you probably know, there's been 127% increase in anti-sex ed legislation in this country

Shannon:
Great.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
and nearly half of the 26 million sexually transmitted diseases. occur between young people aged 15 to 24. So eliminating these programs would be a very, very bad thing.

Shannon:
Yeah.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So just want to highlight that so that, you know, you guys might, people might not know what's going on. There's so much stuff in the news to distract us, but those of us in the sex ed field and who care passionately about sexuality and health, just wanted to point that out. So take a look on your radar, look up your representatives in Congress and just say, hey.

Shannon:
Hey, this matters. This is important.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So the programs are TPPP, Teen Pregnancy Prevention Program, and the Division of Adolescent School Health, which is DASH. So those are the two things you should mention. So thank you for that. That's your PSA.

Shannon:
on it. Great. That's a very nice. So shifting back to our topic in the academic world, as we like to do, we always like to balance our episodes a little bit between pop culture and a little bit of what's going on in academia. But as we mentioned at the top of the episode, Christine recently defended her dissertation successfully and is now Dr. Grandma Chrissy, I mean, Dr. Christine Gurley.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I'll take it, I'll take it.

Shannon:
So Christine, tell us a little bit about, obviously your very lengthy title of your dissertation to start, but then how that defense went and some of the feedback and some of the questions.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah, and I think the feedback is a really offers a lot of commentary for you, Shannon. So first of all, the very lengthy title, which I had to revise somewhat based on feedback, but the title was called Examining the Pursuit of Positive Sexuality as a Health Behavior, Associations of Positive Evaluations of Sexuality with Wellbeing, Depression, Anxiety, and Stress.

Shannon:
So explain it like I'm five. What does it mean?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Basically, the bottom line is, and as our listeners have heard us talk about before, sexual satisfaction, a sexually positive lifestyle is good for you.

Shannon:
What did the research show?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So my research dissertation consists of a number of studies, because that's what you are supposed to do in a dissertation, build on one study after the other. And essentially, the first study looked at what was already out there. And that's called a systematic review. And this review covered 37 countries. So it was really interesting that these studies were pretty global and looked at positive evaluations of sexuality, like sexual satisfaction, sexual quality. and the relationship to different measures of wellbeing, like psychological wellbeing, depressed, anxiety, stress, physical symptoms. And across all of those studies, positive evaluations of sexuality were related to better outcomes.

Shannon:
So in your

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So.

Shannon:
individual research, was that continued to be supported?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Right, so what I did is the next part, and I'll skip across the middle ones because the middle research studies were just kind of esoteric and foundational. But what we know and what you know, because you also have a master's and had to do with thesis, is that correlational research can only show that things are related. And so the fact that sexuality and wellbeing are related doesn't tell you what direction it goes in, right?

Shannon:
Right, so for our listeners, this is the idea of causation, or correlation does not necessarily equal causation, which just means that just because something is related doesn't mean it's necessarily one thing happens because of the other.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly. So my argument is that positive sexuality can result in better psychological health and well-being. But if I'm doing a study based on a survey, it's possible that people who have better psychological health and well-being have better sexual lives. So that's the bidirectionality. So what I try to do is design an experiment to try to test this type of causation. And what I did was it was a pilot study because it only involved 96 college women that I recruited. And the study was called bibliotherapy. And that's a fancy way of saying the participants, the women who came into my lab, were given a book to read.

Shannon:
Great. Man,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Thank

Shannon:
I

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you.

Shannon:
love that. I'm gonna use that as an excuse for like taking a break during the workday. Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, I can't make it. I have bibliotherapy.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah,

Shannon:
But what

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
it's

Shannon:
I'm really

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
helpful.

Shannon:
doing is just like reading, like a beach read.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly. And specifically, this type of bibliotherapy is called self-help bibliotherapy, because it's not guided by anybody. You just read it on your own. And the idea was that the women were asked over four to six weeks to read this book about sexuality.

Shannon:
And what

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And

Shannon:
was the book?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
the book was

Shannon:
We love a play on words, sure.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
You know, it explores basically understanding how your body works, understanding desire, understanding arousal, and looks at it from the point of view of the research, the biology, the culture, all of that. And I should point out Laura Mintz is a researcher in Florida, and she primarily has worked with clinical, well, quote unquote, clinical populations, middle-aged women who have complained about sexual dysfunction, low desire, low arousal, things like that.

Shannon:
Sure.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So this,

Shannon:
They read the book.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
so they read the book, but this is the first time the book was used for people who weren't complaining of any issues.

Shannon:
Right, so you were moving from a place of sort of neutrality versus a place of feeling lacking.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah, exactly. And not focusing on dysfunction, but focusing on the positive aspects. So over the course, so before the study is done, as we do in experimental studies, everybody takes certain baseline measures, looking at sexuality, sexual satisfaction, but then from the point of view of well-being, psychological well-being, depression, anxiety, and stress. And then they go through the period and read the book.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And then after six weeks, they get another survey and they take all of the same, ask all the same question. And part of the reason it's experimental is there was a control group that read a different book. So what we found and what I found in this study at the end of the six weeks is in fact, the women who read the book on sexuality had higher reported psychological well-being and lower reported depression, anxiety, and stress.

Shannon:
interesting.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So I

Shannon:
So,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
actually asked

Shannon:
you know, when we do a thesis, when we do a dissertation, whatever, there's always the discussion and in the discussion is where you say, hey, like, but why though? So what was your but why though?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Well, the why is a tricky thing because I had theorized that I would see that it would be the differences in the sexuality measures that would be driving the differences in the well-being outcomes.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And I didn't really see that. So the why I still have to dig into, honestly, Shannon. But the important thing that I think, first of all, the limitation is that it's a pilot study. It was only 55 women.

Shannon:
Right,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
But...

Shannon:
which for our listeners just means it's a small sample.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah, because when you start off doing something, you want to

Shannon:
Like

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
see

Shannon:
a

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
if

Shannon:
pilot

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
it works,

Shannon:
episode.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you can do

Shannon:
It's

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
it.

Shannon:
like, you're

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yes.

Shannon:
not sure yet if it's gonna work, you know? It might get canceled.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
You're right. And people understand that when they watch the pilot, it's a little bit rough, right?

Shannon:
Yup.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Sometimes the characters are rough around the edges.

Shannon:
Wow. We

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Sometimes

Shannon:
all remember

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
the

Shannon:
the first

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
pilot.

Shannon:
episode of the, uh, US office and how weird that was. And they fixed it after that.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Right, and so pilot experimental study is designed to fix it the second time around as well. But here's the thing that I thought was really encouraging. First, I asked undergraduate students to read an additional book during this semester, and they read it.

Shannon:
Bibliotherapy.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Second,

Shannon:
Well,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
when.

Shannon:
as you know, Gen Z is obsessed with therapy, so.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
It's

Shannon:
They loved it.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
true, but they weren't talking to anyone. They were just reading on their own, right? But the other thing, Shannon, that's important is since I had a control group reading a book about stress management and happiness, and the women who read the sexuality book had higher scores at the end

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
on psychological wellbeing and lower stress.

Shannon:
Yeah, that's very interesting.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
is pretty interesting and pretty, it certainly leads me to want to do more research in this area. And also leads me to encourage our listeners and to say, Hey, you know what? Reading about sexuality, learning about it through listening to the podcast really can help your

Shannon:
actually

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
psychological

Shannon:
make a difference.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
wellbeing. Yeah,

Shannon:
Yeah.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
it really can make a difference. It's not in your head. At least, you know, at least there's a strong suggestion in the data that it's not just related, there's actually some cause and effect happening.

Shannon:
Well, and I think to play out the idea of that why in that discussion, it does make sense, right? Like we love when the research supports something that just quote unquote makes sense, but it makes sense because as you demystify a topic for yourself, you become more comfortable with it. And as you become more comfortable with something, then it stresses you out less and it reduces

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Mm-hmm.

Shannon:
your anxiety. And that's, we've talked about this before, but uncertainty reduction, you know, the more you reduce the uncertainty about something, the more likely you are to feel positive about that subject.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Well, and one of the variables that I look at in my research is called comfort with sexuality.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And even though there was not statistically significant changes in that, all of those variables improved from the first week till the sixth week, which are all easy ways to do that. Like if you're curious about sexuality, I mean, we've had episodes about the internet, but there's so many good books out there. And becoming clitorate is great for... people who identify as women and also very good. There's actually a whole entire chapter, a small chapter to give to male identified partners. But there's also a ton of other good resources out there to read that you can trust. And we've also talked before about Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski, fantastic book. And it really can help you to just read on your own, even if you don't wanna talk to other people about it.

Shannon:
Yeah, and it's also why we try to mention when new shows are out that are doing a good job dealing with certain types of subject matters because exposure to those conversations in a healthy way is to your point of your dissertation, a health behavior. But let's talk about that because

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yes, well,

Shannon:
as you know, I was present for your

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you

Shannon:
dissertation.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
were.

Shannon:
I sat

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Thank

Shannon:
in on it.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you.

Shannon:
You had a bunch of people that showed up and supported you. It was lovely, but part of the dissertation process. And I would argue... Probably the most difficult part of the dissertation defense is knowing that there always is going to be pushback. So let's

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Right.

Shannon:
talk a little bit about the pushback.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Well, and it's definitely, it's interesting to Shannon, because you do, you saw the defense and you present for like half an hour, but my dissertation was 260 pages and they could ask me a question about anything.

Shannon:
about any of it, yeah.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
But the first comment that actually some of our family members bristled at as well was from a health psychologist, researcher, clinical researcher, who pushed back, as you said, and said, wait a minute. Pursuing sexual satisfaction? That's not a health behavior.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm, which

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
to which...

Shannon:
was a little bit interesting

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
..

Shannon:
in that moment because it was the entire crux of your dissertation. You're like, uh-huh, so did you just read the title?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I don't know. Well, and that's part of why I had to kind of soften the title a little bit. But her point was, well, sexual satisfaction with your partner is out of your control. Question mark, question mark, question mark.

Shannon:
Which is funny for me because two things, right? One, it's not out of your control. As we've talked about a billion times on this show, communication can increase your satisfaction with your partner, switching things up can increase your satisfaction

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Thank you.

Shannon:
with your partner, exploring different things like understanding your own body, them understanding their body. There are a multitude of things that can do that. But more importantly, sexual satisfaction doesn't require a partner.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly, all of those things. And just to kind of circle back and finish that loop there is how is pursuing a sexually satisfying life any different than pursuing a healthy diet, pursuing

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
more physical exercise. All of those things are things that you have to commit to doing. And if you commit to doing, it results in a healthier lifestyle and a healthier wellbeing. So The pushback, part of the reason we're discussing that pushback to our listeners is so that you might push back with those questions too. We just really want to emphasize that having sex positivity and viewing your sexuality and learning about your sexuality is a health behavior regardless of whether or not you have a partner. That leads to the second comment. Yeah.

Shannon:
Well, let me just say one thing too, which is that I think immediate reaction to that might be, so I have to have more sex and that'll make me

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
No.

Shannon:
healthier having more, and that's not the answer. And of course, we've talked about all different types of libidos, all different types of sex drives, asexuality, all of that fair game. We are not saying, and this dissertation was not saying have

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
No.

Shannon:
more sex. What this dissertation is saying and what the research is supporting is having more informed. sexual experiences and more positive sexual experiences and

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly.

Shannon:
more pleasure-based sexual experiences. It doesn't mean you have to have more of them. Those are just the aspects you should be looking for in those experiences.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Well, and the bottom line is how you as an individual evaluate your sexuality.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
A person can be very, very sexually satisfied with certain types of sexual activity and the same person, another person down the street might want more things, different things, but if an individual evaluates their sexuality in a positive way, that's the part that's connected to sexuality.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
better improve wellbeing.

Shannon:
Which again is why this bibliotherapy is such a fascinating way to distribute this research and distribute the surveys is because that is an individual experience. Now we're not saying that they didn't go then discuss what they learned with potential partners or other people, but in and of itself, that is an individual experience of reading, learning, and becoming more familiar with the topic of sexuality and positive sexuality.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Right. So that leads to the next comment where, and I think part of what you're seeing in the comments is a real age difference, quite honestly.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
My dissertation committee, who's the one who gets to make the comments, are of a different generation. My cohort of fellow students sitting around me all were like thumbs up, not pushing

Shannon:
You're like, we

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
back

Shannon:
got it?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
at

Shannon:
Yeah.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
all.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
But the second comment was, well, what about if you're not in a romantic relationship? Is there still a connection between sexuality and wellbeing? To which my answer was obviously yes because my sample, although small, included individuals who were single or only dating casually. They also had improved scores on psychological wellbeing and reduced stress over the six-week period.

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So it leads to that. what we've talked about before is sexuality, your evaluations of your sexuality are important. And despite our culture telling us you have to push, push for a relationship, you can be sexual in your own skin without having to find a partner. And then the last thread of comment is like, well, what about the difference when you're in the new phase of a relationship, like NRE, right?

Shannon:
NRE, new relationship energy,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Isn't sexual

Shannon:
the

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
satisfaction...

Shannon:
honeymoon period, the jumping each other's bones period. Yeah, you know,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
They're

Shannon:
the

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
ripping

Shannon:
let's get

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
each other's

Shannon:
out of

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
clothes

Shannon:
here period.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
off.

Shannon:
Yeah.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
The stuff you see in rom-coms.

Shannon:
Yeah, the entirety of every 90 minute rom-com in Hollywood. Yep.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
taking everything off the desk. Vroom. But the question was, well, what about, well, isn't the, isn't sexual satisfaction necessarily higher during that, you know, new passionate phase and, you know, what do you do when a relationship's been around longer?

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Which once again, I think is a misunderstanding of what sexual satisfaction is and isn't.

Shannon:
Well,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Because.

Shannon:
right, because in a way when you think about NRE and you think about that honeymoon period and whatever, there's so much else going on

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Mm-hmm.

Shannon:
that's influencing your quote unquote satisfaction. It's the pure adrenaline of being with someone new. It's the excitement of being with someone new. It's new experience, but it's new. You're focusing on new, but that doesn't mean that it's best or better. It just means that it's the thing that's like giving you a spark right now. But that

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Well,

Shannon:
spark can go out.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
and when I teach my students in love and relationships in very basic social site classes, that passionate phase is the phase also that you are so hyped up on all of those hormones that you don't even see red flags, you don't see any flaws.

Shannon:
Well, it's like that quote, I forget where the quote is from and I'll remember it in a minute, but it says, oh, it's actually from BoJack Horseman, which is hilarious because it's like a cartoon, but it's a really great cartoon, also on Netflix, don't recommend necessarily in this subject matter, but the quote is, when you look at someone through rose colored glasses, red flags, they're just flags.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Very good, very

Shannon:
And

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
good.

Shannon:
the

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And

Shannon:
beginning of your relationship.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
in the beginning you have rose colored glasses

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
for sure. And also you are so much in that, za phase as they said on Sex and the City, that maybe you're not communicating. Maybe

Shannon:
Well, here's an

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you're

Shannon:
example.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
not.

Shannon:
Here's another good analogy, right? When you first move into a new place, you're so excited. You're like, this is great. I love it. It's awesome. Give it a month. Switching the bedroom doesn't work. Why doesn't the light turn on? I don't understand.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I'm going to go to

Shannon:
Like,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
bed.

Shannon:
man, that carpeting's really bad on the first floor. We should probably replace that. It doesn't mean that the foundation isn't good, but you are gonna start finding things that maybe don't work and you maybe need to improve upon.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly. I think I was all thinking that you were going to go for a sports analogy, Shannon.

Shannon:
You know, I wanted to switch it up a little bit, be more

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I

Shannon:
accessible, you know?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
don't know. Because you've got moving on your mind and I just moved into a new apartment too. So I totally get it. It's a great view, it's exciting. And then all of a sudden you're like, I need to fix that.

Shannon:
Yeah, I need to work on X, Y, and Z. But to continue this analogy and to continue the idea of what we're talking about here, once you replace that carpeting, once you fix that light, whatever it is, you're gonna be more satisfied with where you are. So as you develop a relationship, that's the long-winded point we're making here is that everything's great at the beginning, but for you to sustain pleasure and satisfaction. There are tweaks and adjustments that need to be made along the way. But as you make those tweaks and adjustments along the way, that is going to preserve the longevity of that satisfaction.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly. And you want to get yourself in a place where you can communicate with your partner so that your evaluation of your sexual quality stays high

Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
and whatever that means. And what you how you define sexual quality and sexual satisfaction could change from that early passionate phase to when you get a little more settled. Because in the beginning, you're just happy to have your hands all over each other. Right.

Shannon:
Yep, right.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And then maybe in a month or so, Well, it's actually better if you touch me this way. And those are important things to recognize and to also understand that sexual satisfaction is fluid, just like sexuality and sexual identity. It's fluid just like everything else that we talk about. And bottom line is a positive sex life is good for you.

Shannon:
Right, with or without a partner

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
That's right. And

Shannon:
or

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
at

Shannon:
a romantic

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
any stage.

Shannon:
partner. And it also reminds me of our interview that we did at the end of last semester with Tara Galeano, where we talked about, you know, Tara talked about her work with women who had breast cancer, who had mastectomies, things like that, and talked about having to relearn what pleasure and intimacy mean to you. And that regardless of whether you have, you know, a majorly impactful life change like she was discussing, or merely you're just... a person learning more about what makes you comfortable and what makes you good, feel good. Like it changes over a lifetime. And that's where understanding yourself and revisiting your own relationship with yourself, but also revisiting your relationship with a partner as you get to know your partner better and your likes and dislikes. There's never anything that says, well, you said you liked that before, so you have to like that now. You can always evolve that. Yeah.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
That's

Shannon:
You said

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
right.

Shannon:
you wanted to paint the bathroom blue, so the bathroom is staying blue forever. No, if you want

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
No!

Shannon:
to update. You can update the bathroom. Just, you can do that. If it's gonna make you happy, you'll do it.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And you know what's important, Shannon, that you said at any age, at any age this is possible. In fact, one of the things I want to do next with my research is have book clubs about this.

Shannon:
Bibliotherapy.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah, big

Shannon:
Group

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
bibliotheque.

Shannon:
bibliotherapy.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah, bring these, bring, you know, book clubs, read books and then go get together and talk about it. Like, why not have a, have a group of, you know, folks take a book about sexuality and then meet to talk about it? You know, that kind of stuff is just having these discussions like we do on the podcast. It's just healthy.

Shannon:
Yeah,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So,

Shannon:
and it normalizes.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
more conversation about...

Shannon:
Again, we don't love the term normal, but for lack of a better term at the moment, it normalizes the conversation. It normalizes your ability to express that. And if you start with a group of friends and you're able to express your likes and dislikes or your feelings or your concerns or your uncertainties with that group of friends, it will make it easier for you to voice that in the context of a relationship. And it's funny because I forgot who I was talking to a few weeks ago. I was talking to a friend of mine and they were like, I've started hanging out more with the queer community. And I realized that one of the things that the queer community does is talk about sex all the time. And I'm like, well, yeah, the queer community talks about it all the time because it's a much more flexible definition of sex in intercourse. There's a pretty established understanding of what heteronormative sex is. And so I think there's been, you know, the conversations around heteronormative sex have been a lot quieter. Whereas the queer community talks about it because, and I was actually talking to my girlfriend about this. you know, when you first come out, there's always a, I don't really know when I've had sex conversation because, and I sure, of course that exists a little bit in heteronormative sex as well, but really in the queer community, there's much more gray area of like, well, it felt intimate, but

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yes.

Shannon:
did it like, it's not as much like put A into B, thank you, shake hands, we did it. It's more like, I don't know,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Well, and I'm

Shannon:
what are

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
alone.

Shannon:
the parameters of sexual experience?

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
I'll send you the link so it can be posted as a resource, but it's so funny you mentioned that because just in my human sexuality class last week, I gave my students an essay by Greta Christina, who is a blogger, feminist, and it's exactly that. It was about counting sexual acts. She transitioned from being heterosexual to now being LGBTQ, and she's like, wait a minute, now I got to back and recount everything.

Shannon:
My body counts off!

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
You know, and I think it's really, it's an important thing to realize that you can reframe what sexual activity means for you and what's pleasurable for you throughout your whole life course. And the other thing you said is true too. I mean, cisgendered heterosexual folks, we talk about sexy, but we don't talk about sexuality all that much. And that's part of the reason we have this podcast. part of the reason I teach psychology, human sexuality from a heterosexual lens, because there's a presumption that just because the research has been done with heterosexual folks, means that they have a better understanding of their sexuality and...

Shannon:
Allow me to introduce the orgasm gap.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yes.

Shannon:
But I do think it would be an interesting area for future research to look at that, like the difference between queer relationships and where their starting point is for what did you call it? Like the sexual comfort with sexuality or whatever it is, it'd be interesting.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yes.

Shannon:
Yeah, it'd be really interesting to see because I do know from my personal experience that sex is talked about considerably more and with considerably more, you know, casualness

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
We're

Shannon:
in

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
good.

Shannon:
my queer circles than it is in it with among any of my straight friends. And that's just kind of an interesting

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah,

Shannon:
cultural

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
well, as a footnote, I do have a fair amount of data on that. And, you know, with undergraduate college students, but even with that sample, there is a definite, as they say in statistics, a significant difference between individuals who identify as LGBTQ versus straight slash heterosexual folks in terms of their comfort with sexuality, even in a college population.

Shannon:
Yeah,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
So you think

Shannon:
yeah,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
people

Shannon:
doesn't

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
are talking

Shannon:
surprise

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
about it more.

Shannon:
me. Yeah,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Yeah.

Shannon:
doesn't surprise me. So anyway, interesting research. I'm sure we'll touch on it more throughout the semester. As we're kind of talking about this, we're talking about sexuality and academia. We did wanna briefly mention going into a new school year, one of the most important topics to keep in mind is consent.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Mm-hmm.

Shannon:
You know, whatever your definition of having sex is.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Hahaha.

Shannon:
You still need to get consent. And as we talked about in one of our episodes in the first semester, consent is about getting to yes. It's

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Exactly.

Shannon:
not merely about saying no, it is about making sure that your partner, whoever you are engaging with in any kind of sexual activity is giving an excitable, happy yes, definitely thrilled to be here yes. And as a

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And

Shannon:
reminder,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
not a fine,

Shannon:
no fine, yeah,

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
no fines, and no okay.

Shannon:
a definite yes. A hell yes even is preferable, but you can't. Get to sexy without yes.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And we'll definitely have an episode coming up this season, you know, debunking the myth that, you know, getting consent isn't sexy. And I do think that I've heard from, you know, listeners and students that, you know, how do you do it, the sexual communication? How do you do it? So we will probably have an episode of kind of a how-to to kind of demonstrate, you know, how getting to yes is a very, can be a very, very sexy thing in the context of sexual.

Shannon:
Yes, but just to be clear, when we say getting to yes, we mean together, respectfully, mutually, not trying to force someone to

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Thank

Shannon:
say

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
you.

Shannon:
yes, just a caveat. So yeah, as we're saying, we are jumping into a whole new semester. We're gonna have all new guests. We are gonna talk about so many different topics. Some that we know we're gonna get into are sex and religion. We're gonna talk more about purity culture. We're gonna talk about sexual identity and discovering. different types of identity, gender identity, sexual identity at all different ages. But as always, we welcome any of your questions that you have that you'd like us to discuss on the show, whether it's a study session or a full length myth to debunk. We are always open to your suggestions at sexeddebunked.gmail.com or shoot us a message on any of the socials at sexeddebunked.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
And thanks for continuing to listen and bring your curiosities to this podcast and please continue to communicate with us. We are expecting this semester to be the third level seminar here. So we're going to dig deeper into a lot of these subjects. We feel like most of our listeners have had a really good foundation. So you can expect us to be looking at stuff in a much more nuanced way this semester with some really awesome guests that we have in mind. So keep tuning in and we'll be back with all new episodes and a study session next week.

Shannon:
Yeah, it's gonna be really good, guys. We're gonna talk about all the dating apps and all the weirdness that's happening in the dating sphere right now. That is a wrap on this episode of Sex Ed Debunked. We'll be back for a whole new semester, and as always, thanks for tuning.

Christine M. Curley, PhD:
Bye now, take care.

Shannon:
Bye.

Sex Ed Debunked

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