Myth #39: Sex Isn't A Skill

On this week’s episode, Christine and Shannon return for the third semester of Sex Ed Debunked with an episode on skill-building in the bedroom, and what it means to be “good in bed.” The duo is joined by intimacy and pleasure experts Elizabeth Wood and Dan Powers of  The Pleasure Movement. 

Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com 

Transcript

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Christine: 0:03

Hi, this is sex ed debunked across generational podcast hosted by mother daughter duo Christine and Shannon Curley.

Shannon: 0:10

Every episode we tackle a new myth about sex, sexuality and pleasure and use research and expert insights to debunk stereotypes and misinformation from the bedroom and beyond.

Christine: 0:18

In 2022, we won the American Association of sexuality educators, counselors and therapists Award for Best podcast

Shannon: 0:25

and also managed to not totally freak out our family and friends along the way.

Christine: 0:28

We believe in healthy sex positive pleasure focused sex education, backed by real research and real experience.

Shannon: 0:34

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter at sex ed debunked or emails at sex ed debunked@gmail.com to share your sex, miseducation tales and the myths you'd like to hear us debunk.

Christine: 0:44

Thanks for listening.

Shannon: 0:47

Hi, and welcome back to sex debunked across generational podcast about sex positivity, sexual health and the false assumption that good in bed just means you're a really great sleeper.

Christine: 0:56

I would. Welcome back to our show. We hope you enjoyed your summer break as much as we did. It's been a nice little time off. But we're so ready to jump back into debunking myths for you.

Shannon: 1:08

Yeah, we've actually spent the last two months finding more and more and more myths to debunk between our booth at Pride going to Jimmy Buffett, there's just been a lot of Social Inquiry and involuntary brainstorming, especially in Jimmy Buffett. Yeah, learning a lot. So I guess we better just get to it. Right? No time to waste your time like the president. Let's do it.

Christine: 1:26

So we're starting our fall semester. Let's go. So on today's episode, we're talking about a myth that I actually wanted to cover in our first ever episode. But Shannon said it was too soon.

Shannon: 1:36

Well, we had to ease them in.

Christine: 1:39

I know, I know. But now we're ready. You've had two semesters of debunking. So we're going to debunk the myth that sex comes naturally to everyone. Or that sex isn't a skill. And that method also goes to you're either good in bed or you're not.

Shannon: 1:55

You're either a goddess of sex or I don't know of a virgin. I don't I don't know what the opposite of

Christine: 2:00

Goddess of sexes, but we'll figure it maybe the awkward puppy.

Shannon: 2:04

Awkward puppy. Okay, well, the truth is that sex like many things, requires practice and practice makes perfect or at least more fun, more fun. Yeah, definitely more fun. But don't just take our word for it. Right. We've got some experts and some research to share with the class on why and how to take your sex skills from intro to honors, AP.

Christine: 2:25

All first we'll share some of the literature on sex skills and skill building. And we'll talk to sexual skills and intimacy educators, Elizabeth wood and her husband and partner Dan powers, about sex intimacy, and using knowledge to maximize pleasure.

Shannon: 2:39

Oh my gosh, nerdy and pleasurable, we love to see it. Alright, so tell me about the research.

Christine: 2:44

So let's start at the very beginning. The idea for this myth came from Lenore T for his book of essays called sex is not a natural Act,

Shannon: 2:53

which part of the reason why we didn't start the show with that is because as soon as you said it, I'm like, but that sounds like we're shaming people into not having said, Oh, no, no, she's not the greatest.

Christine: 3:01

It's the opposite. So Lenore T for was a sexuality activist. She's a psychologist and a feminist. She's actually started this work in the 70s and 80s. And her message was against the medicalization of sex. Meaning that if you think sex is a natural act, that means it's biology and I should know how to do it. And if I don't, I can fix it with a pill or fix it with some other type of medical treatment. Okay, interesting. So that was her point of view. The second point of view is, if we say it's natural, what happened and we talked about this in our season one is the understanding that, well, I should know how to do it. Right. And that, that women who you know, back for the feminist theory of women who were not able to have an orgasm through intercourse, which as we know, yeah, it only happens for 15 to 20% of women orgasm

Shannon: 4:01

gap,

Christine: 4:02

meant they weren't naturally gifted at sex. So her series of essays talks about the fact that that sex for all genders and all orientations is something we can learn. It's a skill like, we like our sports metaphors, like learning how to a perfect serve in tennis, you know, right, or how to send the ball like Beckham it's a skill we can learn. And one of the other things Lenore T for talked about that we also talked about, I believe in season one, is the idea of put forth by Masters and Johnson, that sexuality is linear, that human response cycle where you get excited, and you reach a plateau and then you reach orgasm, and then you you know, just kind of have the down action. Well, as we've learned, and as our listeners have learned, sexuality is not linear, especially for people who own pelvis. So the premise of this of debunking this myth is for all of you out there to understand That's okay. In fact, it's should be applauded, if you want to improve your sex skills, and you want to learn more about yourself more about your body, and more about your partner's body and their likes and dislikes, right? And

Shannon: 5:15

that's why, you know, there are sex and intimacy coaches is because you're getting, again, sports, right? A coach, a coach teaches you how to perfect whatever your skills are. And sex is not an exception.

Christine: 5:27

So this kind of work is often called Sex, illogical, bodywork sex illogical, I know, it's very fancy, or somatic sex or therapy, which means that you're learning about sexuality by actually, hands on skills because

Unknown: 5:42

it's true. And it's

Christine: 5:44

it's part of a therapy that is, is, is very, it's common, and commonly discussed in the sexuality world, but not so common in counseling and therapy. And part of the debunking this myth about sex skills, is to kind of normalize like, it's okay, as you said, to get a coach, so much of the research in this area on somatic sex therapy, and sexual otic. Logical body work is much more anecdotal, which in the research world is considered qualitative research. And what that means is you're talking to people who have been through the experience, and pretty much uniformly individuals of various genders, I will say that most of the research is on men and women report that this type of bodywork works, yeah, enhances the pleasure, their own pleasure and the pleasure of their partners.

Shannon: 6:41

So because I always do this, I Googled how to be good at sex. And I just want to point out, and you can make whatever assumptions you want to make about this. But the first response, or the first article is 16, sex tips for women how to be better in bed. The second is 51 sex tips for men who want to be better in bed. So I think, Make of that what you will, but the orgasm kept for me, it's alive and well.

Christine: 7:10

Those individuals and therapists who do somatic body work, what what many of them talk about is not specific, quote, unquote, tips. That's what you see in, you know, cosmopolitan, and Vogue and GQ, but what they're really talking about, is getting into your body. And some of it is actually quite, almost meditative. Almost preaching a mindfulness of saying, I'm going to just feel my body and not listen, and all that crazy crap that tends to go around in our heads.

Shannon: 7:46

When we interviewed court box, that was something that court brought up was, you know, the importance of mindfulness and really focusing on your body and your experience and your partner in that moment. And I will say one of the interesting things that popped up when I did that Google search was, and it came up in a lot of the different articles was talking about sex outside the bedroom, so that when you're in the bedroom, it's not as pressure, like it's not as full of pressure, because you've normalized the conversation. So there's less pressure about it. And that's something we've talked about a lot on the show is the importance of sexual communication. But I think that's a really good distinction is sexual communication doesn't have to happen just when you are in the bedroom, it actually is better to talk about what you like what you want, what you're anticipating your fantasies, whole myriad of things, but it doesn't have to be in the sexual setting,

Christine: 8:33

quote, unquote. And by the same token, Shannon, sexual skills don't have to be learned in the bath bedroom. So if you think about back to your sports metaphor, you don't expect to come up to the plate and hit a homerun right away. You have to learn how to hold the bat, you have to learn your stance, you have to learn how to read the pitch that's coming at you. And sexual skills can be viewed similarly. Don't expect when you walk into the bedroom, or when you meet a new partner, you're going to know everything there is to know about the sexual skills with that partner. Expect that there's going to be a process maybe at a process of just talking about what kind of touched you like. Do you like it hard to like, do you like like fingers on your skin? Do you like being grabbed? Do you like being scratched? Those are things are pretty sexy conversations either in or outside of the bedroom?

Shannon: 9:27

Well, and to stick with our sports metaphors. It's sort of like playing doubles tennis, right? I mean, you have to understand how your partner is gonna like how they're gonna play what they're gonna want. You have to have certain signals. It's not the same thing as singles.

Christine: 9:40

So and talking a little bit more about sex logical body work. We do need to talk about the topic of sex work. We have to talk about the great movie that came out on Hulu that over the summer. Oh, yeah, the one we told people to watch. Oh my god. Good luck to you, Leo Grande. You're with me, Tom. Emma Thompson, and the name of the male actor escapes me but he was phenomenal. Daryl McCormack, thank you very much, Shannon, so good with the Google. My best skill a lot quicker than your mom's

Shannon: 10:13

because I practice so much, you know.

Christine: 10:15

But what that movie showed is to two things will show it 100 things, but two things. It's just relevant to the myth we're talking about today. One, how they portrayed the sex worker. I mean, Shannon, what did you think about that portrayal?

Shannon: 10:33

Yeah, I think he was this very, like the professionalism of it, you know. And what's interesting about the movie is that Emma Thompson is more awkward and more, I think, uncomfortable with the premise of the sex worker doing sex work than the sex worker is like, for him, he's like, this is my profession. I am, I am skilled in this. And it is a skilled trade that I'm using to help other people. And she understands that ultimately, he understands it by the end of the film, but there's definitely this interesting learning curve at the beginning of, well, how are you comfortable with this, and he's like, I'm perfectly comfortable with this, you're the one that needs to work on being comfortable.

Christine: 11:08

And I think that learning curve in the movie parallels the learning curve of the viewer of the movie, which makes it so very interesting and insightful. The second piece that's really relevant to this episode is Emma Thompson, who was a 60, something matron who self to self disclosed, never had an orgasm, learned about her body, learned about pleasure, learned about how to be proud of how she was as an erotic human being.

Shannon: 11:39

And she brings to her sessions, a sex bucket list, I guess, a bucket list. But but says I've never done this before. Like, this is a list of things I've never done before, but would like to learn how to do. And so recommend watching it for sure. It's an excellent movie. But also just those takeaways, I think are important for the for our listeners to think about, just like we've thought about is, you know, if there's something you've never done before you can learn it. And the way that it's sort of positioned in the movie is that the sex worker is her is her trainer,

Christine: 12:12

pretty much her coach,

Unknown: 12:13

right coach.

Christine: 12:14

And for all of you listeners out there, this is a brave new world, but be brave and realize that you don't have to think of sex as something you have to know. It's also something you can learn. So now let's cut to our interview with sexual skills and intimacy educators, Elizabeth wood, and her husband and partner Dan powers, about sex intimacy, and using knowledge to maximize pleasure. Welcome, Elizabeth wood and Dan powers to sex ed debunked.

Unknown: 12:48

Welcome to the show.

Christine: 12:51

So first, why don't you just tell a little bit, our listeners a little bit about your personal journey, and how you got to doing working with sex and intimacy education.

Unknown: 13:02

Back in the day long ago, I graduated with a psychology degree and not much to do with that, until I went to graduate school. So in grad school, I became a licensed social worker. And we were offered a an opportunity to become part of a holistic team, with medical students, the medical students and the social workers, we were given the opportunity to take a training in sex therapy, sex education. And so what I thought was amazing is that we did a top to toe physically to eliminate anything that might be getting in the way. And then I was there to do the the minds piece. They were the body piece, I was the mind piece. And I thought it was AMAZING until the medical model stopped working for me. medical model of sexual dysfunction, and how do we label them? Shannon, you're younger than I am, I think we were dT dt, DSM, 345 and six, actually broaden the category of how people can be classified as dysfunctional. And what I noted was that it's just people didn't know the basics. They didn't know what was where, what, what were the school, no less. Yeah. And, you know, I was like, I just can't label people dysfunctional anymore. Because, in my opinion, and in my practice, they lacked quality education, lack sex, positive education, and they certainly lacked pleasure based education. It was all death, dying and disease. And so I gave up my license and I really started to come into an understanding of so much more information. is available outside of a textbook with regard to understanding different traditions of I wouldn't call them alternative but their alternative because they weren't ever found in a textbook. Unless you go back back back, Kama Sutra has been around for that's how I came to be a more of a well rounded as what I'd like to say, comprehensive sexuality educator.

Christine: 15:29

That's a great story because your story you really start from what a lot of us struggle with this whole medicalization of dysfunction, and it's just different function and its lack of skills and lack of learning, and you guys are looking to fill that gap. How about you, Dan?

Unknown: 15:45

I came at it from the opposite direction. I'm a software engineer with an MBA but I live the life that I think many Americans do where, you know, I went to college, got a good degree, got a good job, bought a house or got married, bought a house have two and a half kids. So the ladder Yeah, yeah, yeah, the, you know, the American dream, if you will. And I was so bored in, in our marriage and in the corporate world. And after I'd been married for 17 years, I got, I hooked up with a woman who introduced me to Tantra. And that was the first time that I've ever had a conversation. That was not sophomore luck, around sex. It was something that was more creative than dysfunctional. And so I wondered, as the engineer to learn more, and more and more, until I started taking classes I explored going to the academic world. But I found out that they really are dysfunctional around sex themselves.

Christine: 16:52

While I'm working to correct that, then I'm working.

Unknown: 16:58

A little faster. Please. But yeah, so I started taking a bunch of different classes and learning about practical aspects and learn about pleasure. Pleasure engineering, was my website, and just move that forward. And so I then got married to live with when I met her in a Tantra workshop. And we've just been going at this for a decade now.

Christine: 17:27

Fascinating. Well, that's a great clip, great story about how you met to write

Unknown: 17:31

me cute. Um, I, what I like about both of your stories is that you came from an originally came from a background that was not about pleasure, or excitement or anything positive, really. And medically, it's always about a lack, right? It's always lacking something. And even with the engineering background, there's a very, like direct step by step approach to everything. It's all linear. And I think it's really fascinating that both of you came from those backgrounds, and then said, this is not enough. And it's not comprehensive. And we want to move forward and do something different. Now. I think that's a really cool story. And I think it fits in well, to our myth for this week, which you know, is about skills around intimacy and skills around pleasure, because it's not just, this is how you do it. And then it's done. There's so much more to that process.

Christine: 18:21

Well, and this is how you do it today doesn't mean this is how you do it tomorrow. So as we met, as Shannon mentioned, the myth we're talking about this week is that sex comes naturally. Either you're good at it, or you aren't, and you can't learn it. So you guys are clearly the perfect experts for this episode.

Unknown: 18:40

So I think our first question and this is a question that is going to bridge out into so many other questions, but um, can you learn to be better at sex? So I'm going to actually take us back a couple sentences because sex should happen naturally. Okay, sex is the most natural act. I mean, it's, uh, you know, we're in our animal nature, but does it come naturally? Well, the hormones come raging forward. So, Dr. And that urge and that hunger that all comes into our bodies at the, you know, at the age appropriate time, but we have done so much to move away from sex being a natural act with all of the dogmas and my, my learning was with a I'm old enough to say this, a nurse with a white hat and she brought in a box and back in the day. Back No, no, I got a box. And back in the day, it was not talked about it was the you know, if you become pregnant, or you know our parents saying, I have three I have three sisters. And my parents never said this, but I knew other girls in high school whose parents said you come home pregnant, the doors will be locked and don't come to the back or so there's so much that's overlaid and squashing down those natural tendencies and those feelings and we develop shame and guilt. And it's kind of like an unpacking, in order for sex to be really felt in its natural and full capacity.

Christine: 20:22

Okay, so So part of the skill building is almost like peeling off the layers so you can get back to the natural person you are.

Unknown: 20:33

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I would say that sex isn't natural access, we've been able to figure it out. I mean, nobody taught me how to have sex, because that's not what we did in my era. And I was able to figure it out. You know, just what whether it was watching animals having sex in the barnyard, which I didn't have a barn America, it was really hard to do. But no, we were able to figure something out, you know, put pull a in the hole be and

Christine: 21:03

I'm How do you think that you know, but I think that comes a little differently for, for the people who have evolvers may not have felt that the guys were figuring it out as well as the guys thought they were? What's the bar? Yeah.

Unknown: 21:20

Well, absolutely, I think that's absolutely true. And I think that's the crux of your question is, this is a natural thing, we will figure it out at some point in time, because we have the hormones that are driving us and like, well, what's going on here? And to do it well, and that's the deal with it. I don't think we do. I used to respond to a website, those girls ask guys, and guys, ask girls, I'm like that anyway. And they ask the question all the times, like, Well, how do you do this? How do you do that? And they just really struggle with how to have sex. And I, at that time, I said, Well, we don't know how to have sex. And somebody argued with me, it's like, well, of course we do. We not stick it in. It's like, yes, but I think there's a difference between proficiency and pleasure. And we certainly have figured out how to procreate. But that's, that's a whole function that I mean, no matter what animals will always procreate. That's that natural instinct, but to do to have a skill. I mean, it takes learning. It takes a son, sometimes there's a guide, sometimes there's classes, you don't become, I mean, Serena Williams, she's just now leaving, leaving that the legacy behind practice, and learning and different coaches and different opponents. Until she mastered that skill through practice, and became one of the most proficient and prolific in terms of championships. You You don't become a piano virtuoso, or a violin virtuoso. Just I'm not saying that we all have to be sexual ninjas. Yeah, I mean, it'd be fun, though. roleplay. Yeah, the willingness and the openness to learn about your own body, and how it likes to be turned on. And certainly we all know what turns us off. And we're really like, really good at knowing what turns us off. Understand, and do the investigation and the exploration of your own body. And then with with a partner, that that takes time that takes that willingness to be open to new learning.

Christine: 23:47

Well, Elizabeth is funny because we we chat and often speak in sport metaphors. So yeah, beautiful.

Unknown: 23:53

Great. Yeah. But I think one of the questions that brings up and again, this will lead into other questions. But does practice make perfect? And does it work for everyone? You know, I think some of the questions that we've kind of gone through in this process of even having this entire podcast has been like well, will one is it a one size fits all approach? You know, like, if I'm good at it with someone, is it going to be good with everyone? I think the value of practice is that you start to learn that one size does not fit all. In my practice, I've learned that every woman likes something different. And so something that nine women like, you know, a 10th won't, but I've got enough arrows in my quiver. I can if I'm reading her body, if I'm listening to her, and if she is able to ask for what she wants, then we have a really great dance that moves forward. You know, it's like training people that do dance like there's certainly cues that the leader does in order for the follower to follow along with Well, in this kind of a dance, it's the same thing. If I'm doing something in particular, and my partner indicates that she's not really enjoying it, or would like something different, then I can do that. But I've got a lot of practice under my belt that I know a number of different techniques and things to try.

Christine: 25:18

So as some of that practice, simply learning how to read cues.

Unknown: 25:25

It's the result of my taking so many different classes and being able to read clues. I'm a sex logical body worker. And so I work with women hands on, and I'm able to read the subtle changes in their bodies, when something doesn't appear to be working for them. I've got a number of different things that I've learned over time that I can apply, and say, hey, you know, let's try this will this work? Nope, that couldn't work either break the thought, it gets my ego because it shouldn't be, it should be an egoless type thing, in my opinion, because I'm not your body, I don't have a vulva and a clitoris, I don't know what feels good to you, personally. So I'm just going to try things until you let me know that feels good. And back to the practice piece. i It's my opinion that we all need to practice our own instrument. So in order for me to share my turn on with my partner, then I need to know what turns me on. And then I can be guided and encouraged or develop enough confidence to ask for what I want so that my partner isn't fumbling, doesn't have to read all of my cues. But you know, if I'm mom, like, with pleasure, that's kind of a good cue that one was really good. But also turning red toes, curling hands, grabbing the sheets, yes. And also to use the direct requests and direct that feels great, but let's try this, I think that might feel better. And so that's a skill that that's a muscle of, you know, self development that we have to build in order to be able to then use this voice to say, it's not working so great, but I think this will. So that's Shannon, where I think practice both in a cocked body that involve a body being is really understand and develop more of a wider repertoire. What turns you on? I mean, if it's literally just pumping, that's going to end up being boring for both of us. Yeah, I think what I like about what you're saying is that both partners or however many partners, there's an active role to be played, even, you know, you're not just receiving, you're also asking, and you're also having your own active role in you know, what you want and understanding what your body wants. And I think that's an important skill, too. And that's what you're saying is like, you can't just expect that someone else is going to be good at it. Like you also have to contribute, because it's not one size fits all, because practice might make perfect with the one partner you've had for 15 years. But if you have a new partner, you're gonna have to practice in a different way. It's basically a new sport. And it's for a whole body, it's a new sport with as, as we age. And so just speaking, I'm in menopause, but that is completely different. Turn on is completely different. And so if if, you know, my, my husband thinks that we can interact the same way that I did when I was in high school, I mean, game over. I need more support, I need more lubrication, I need more time to ready myself. For sexual connection. That's just a function, you know, and the same thing, if a vulva body delivers a baby, you know, things change, or hormones change. So what worked last week, even for a menopausal body is not necessarily true that it's gonna work this week. Well, that's even true for an hour later. Yeah, you're right. My experience, it's, I do something to a woman and she enjoys it. And then the next time I'm with her, or even in the same session, the same thing, and she's ready to move on to something else. And so we're always having to trial and test things out. And I think that if we would query, you know, people on the street and we've said, Do you know what you want to know what you enjoy? What turns you on? They? It's a hard question to answer. It's a hard question to answer, then they aren't able to ask for what they want. And so I think it's an all folks out there, really being able to ask for what you want. You have to go back to figuring it out first. But you know, if If you're paired with someone who looks differently and is shaped differently than your previous partner or partners, you, you you develop the skill to figure out what their turn on in that body is. So I don't necessarily believe in something that's well known in our field sexual incompatibility.

Christine: 30:22

That was our next question, actually, is there a such thing as being not well aligned? Is there a such thing as saying, well, and

Unknown: 30:29

does it mean if you're not well aligned? Or if the sex isn't good? Does that mean you're inherently not compatible? Well set so in most relationships, sex is such an important important that we don't want to say, you know, sex keeps couples together. It's it's the intimacy is the heart bond. It's the pelvic bond. It's a brain bond, chemical chemical bond. Where's the willingness? I would say, are you willing to learn each other's bodies in a different way? Are you willing to learn your turn on both Dan and I are second, in addition to being six logical body workers. We're also certified erotic blueprint coaches. We all have erotic blueprints are based on what is the key that you hold that opens your pathway to turn your number one blueprint could be kinky, or energetic, or sexual, which is predominantly how we're taught here in the US sexual. But a lot of us aren't primary, blueprint, sexual, and then there's sensual. And then there's all of the above, which is called shapeshifter. So are you willing to learn new skills to figure out and the other part was desire discrepancy? You know, just having had surgery, I was like a once a month type of person until I fully healed partner could have been twice a day. Well, that's another part of what is that? What is the frequency there might be that a desire difference? And then that's the work of like an amazing coach, educator therapist, to figure out what's really behind that, and what's getting in the way. I think that the incompatibility is a mental one if, yeah, yes. If they have no desire to be with someone, then you can't make something happen to make something work. In a lot of the work that I've done, these women have had these sexual awakenings, and then they go back to their husband. And they say, wow, I've woken up, I want more, I want this, I want that and their husband's like, well, I want to show you how you were before I don't? Yeah. And so, you know, in that respect, I would say they're incompatible, because he's not interested in stepping forward and supporting this.

Christine: 32:54

So basically, if both partners are interested in being compatible, you can figure it out? Well, I

Unknown: 33:00

think that's, you know, something we talk about a lot on the show, and I've talked about with many guests is the shame and the feelings of you know, I can't give my partner what they want, or what I did didn't work. So it's just not going to work. And I think what you're saying that's so important, comes back to the root of communication and being able to realize that it's separate from yourself. It's not I'm bad at sex, or we're not good at sex. It's how can we figure out how to get there together, because we're learning each other's bodies, and we're learning what each other wants. And so viewing it as an opportunity to increase and improve upon pleasure versus, you know, a challenge of we're not good together, I think a lot of that comes back to mindset to your point. So what it is, again, is it's that curiosity about your partner, curiosity about your own turn on and how to mix and match and feed each other, also get fed at the same time. So it is a curiosity and a willingness and an interest to become better as a lover. Yeah, yeah. Now, we love the curiosity, but it makes it more fun.

Christine: 34:05

So a lot of what we're talking about is like new partners, and new relationships, can you learn new skills after you've been together for 1015 20 years? And is that?

Unknown: 34:17

And also do you find it more? Because I assume the answer is yes. But is it more challenging because of, you know, one, the comfort you've developed with a partner in certain patterns, but also that mental part that we were talking about of like, well, am I suddenly not good anymore?

Christine: 34:32

So I know that in my in my research, I've had that question that well, how do you how do you change the paradigm if you've already been together for 15 years? How How does that work without making an either partner feel bad?

Unknown: 34:46

So where's the discomfort in learning how to pleasure each other that that question is, is best worked out with a therapist, like if there's discomfort, or like you're disgruntled? It's about bringing pleasure to your partner, then where is the whatever might be stacked against you for those first 15 years. I mean, are you both coming in one may not want to do it. And so if you're bringing someone in kicking and screaming, we've got issues, it's not, you know, they're, they're bigger fish to fry, before you come into this place of really expanding, and opening up more to a deeper level of sexuality. Because no one ever comes to a coach, or no one ever comes into a therapist when things are working really great. You know. So there, you may have resentments of how somebody engaged with you. Or unresolved trauma from previous relationships or earlier on in the relationship. But if you want to make change, and do that growth work, it's not you just don't like snap your fingers and everything changes, it's, and that's where the pleasure and the fun. And the curiosity comes in. Because quite honestly, the four of us, it's a very serious subject that we're talking about filled with a lot of shame, trauma, drama. However, if we can recognize that, honor that and then bring back the fun and the innocence and the play. That's more exciting as to what the possibilities might be. But we do have to peel off the layers to see of what's really getting in what might be getting in the way. Yeah,

Christine: 36:37

well, there's two things, you know, like if you've reached a certain age or a certain part in your relationship, and you know, we're some three out of four of us are a little older, right? And you and you see what's going on with the younger population. And you say, we I'm missing out on something here. And you have to how do you approach your partner and say, I feel like we I feel like we could do better? Like it's been good? Yeah, but I feel like we can do better. Well, yeah,

Unknown: 37:04

and it's it's wouldn't it be fun to try block like x y&z Not there's a lack. And again, that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. But it's I feel like that, positioning it as not a lack but as an opportunity, not a lack. But here's something more we could do. It's not lacking. It's more

Christine: 37:20

Yeah, it's but it's, I think it's still a challenge for especially when you're of a certain generation, and you're not supposed to be talking about pleasure and sex. And all of a sudden, you're like, hey, wait, I'm reaching a certain age, and I haven't experienced this, and maybe I want to,

Unknown: 37:34

like the list in good luck. I think that's the value of some of these shows that are coming out now on Hulu, and Netflix and everything else that are openly exploring sexuality. It's starting to create a space for conversation. That's not the shaming of oh, we don't have good sex anymore. It's like, wow, look, look what they've been doing, I think show on HBO, the real sex stuff was that as well. It's like, this is opportunity to look and see what other people are doing. And go, wow, that looks interesting. You'd be interested in something like that just came out on Discovery plus Caitlyn V. Good sex, and she is a sex coach working with couples. And so these couples come in and she's exploring with them, you know, their desire differences, their erectile dysfunction, kinds of issues, trauma issues, things like that, and anything that's over and above the coaching realm, she would send off to a therapist. And that's what we do as well. So like, look, you know, if you haven't helped head your handheld and guided, you know, she talked about Serena Williams, they didn't just go and play tennis the whole time and just keep playing and playing playing. They looked at the minutus impact of how they move their feet, or how they move their shoulder or arms or hands or whatever, it is not the same or in sexuality, if there's certain things that aren't going on correctly. How do we adjust that so that we can make it better? And indicate what so she actually had cameras in the bedroom, so they could watch and see what was going on. And one of the episodes is hilarious, because they have a little dog that's in bed with them. And the dog is thinking there's always an animal. Let's get out of here, you creep. Oh, that is very creepy. picking his nose up the guy's butt as he's trying to use his leg to kick the dog out and that hurts. It doesn't work. I'm saying okay, well, first thing we need to discuss getting your animal out of the bedroom. We that's a different kingdom altogether, I guess. The barnyard you might be into it. Part of that is that this couple he didn't want to kick the dog out because it was her dog and so you know it's sometimes we'll take another person to To point out the obvious that the dog has its rightful place in its own dog bed, and then every once in a while, certainly not when you're making love, maybe that dog can come up and be, you know, like a fluffy pillow or whatever it might be. But that's, that's the value of someone taking a look at. And really helping the couple understand like, oh, look, oh, yeah, of course the dog, you know, type of Yeah, yeah, well, and of course, environment does impact you, right. And we've talked about that. We talked about that with CT VOCs. Where like, if your brain is full of other things, or there's some sort of distraction, you're not going to enjoy your experience as much. And like, yes, you might love your dog. But you're thinking about your dog crawling around on the bed, licking your leg doing whatever, you're obviously not fully in the

Christine: 40:48

game. Which put it this leads me to a question as is skill building sexual skill building different for cocked bodies versus vulva bodies,

Unknown: 41:00

we've got one, we got one of each, somewhere here, I wouldn't think so. They're their skills, there's mastery that can be done at both levels. And obviously, it's going to be a little bit different because as Lewis says, Men are public's while women's or private, young minds external minds out there for everybody to see and handle and deal with were hers is quiet and subtle and hidden away. And so learning but learning about my own body, we've got this pressure as a man in this culture, that we are sexual that we think about sex every 11 seconds. And now the breeze comes by and again direction, and I want to insert it into something. And I think that's just simply not true for a lot of men. And so having to learn some skills that you know what I think the blueprints are great for, to understand your body more and understand what your path of arousal is, just like for women and reducing that shame there, you need to in my opinion, mastering the art of receiving is way more difficult than the art of giving. It's so easy for me to bypass my needs, and just give, give, give and become really good at it like Oh, I am the best person to and I can teach you all these skills. So then I just thought of one other thing. But how to receive, I think is also an amazing and most underdeveloped quality that all of us.

Christine: 42:40

I also always say though, I hear a lot of that talk about the giver and receiver. And in my relationship, my husband was always like, I'm a better giver. He's a better giver, I'm a better receiver.

Unknown: 42:53

And I said what, but I'm a good receiver. If you're a good receiver, the givers pleased if you're a bad receiver. There's no fun in giving right? To being a good receiver and not nothing but that is why women are you know, Volvo owners tend to fake orgasms. Because we don't want you to feel bad. And what you were saying about the erogenous zones and feeling pleasure and your entire body leads back to a myth we've talked about endlessly, which is that orgasms aren't the only goal of sex. Because if you prioritize the orgasm is the end goal and the only goal and you're missing out on so many different forms of pleasure and intimacy that do not require a big hurry completely. And I would say also that that's not being a good receiver. If you're faking orgasms. No, it's a bad Yeah, we like to say that we support every kind of orgasm except a fake one. Okay, they used to back in the olden days when I mean, somebody went into like a mainframe, or a really complicated switchboard, a lot of these young viewers won't know what that is, but a phone telephones they used to be a picture of like, the difference between a cocked body and their route to sexuality. It was one button and one button only, and it was on off. And then they literally took a picture of all the wires and all the different colored wires and all the buttons and all the slats. So there's this, it's sexuality is complex. It's not just relegated to the difference between a copper bulb a body. And again, it's like, we really need to spend the time to understand that complexity in order for like, a simple thing to happen and turn us both on simultaneous orgasms. No, I mean, gosh, you're lucky if that happens, and you can work toward it. But that shouldn't be your goal, like really enjoying the whole journey. If we're if we're skipping out on that then you know, it's like, I don't know we're just missing a big big Peace. Tell us about the pleasure movement. Tell us about what you're working on now. So, so my I'm the pleasure movement, and we work together as engineer pleasure engineering. And so it's really great. How do we how do we engineer more pleasure in our lives? I mean, pleasure is there, everywhere, if we take time to notice that what the pleasure movement was created to do was help people bond together. With pleasure and pleasure, there is a very distinct difference between pleasure for pleasures sake, and sexual pleasure. Pleasure doesn't just always mean sex. It can. What pleasure do you take from your senses, and best believe that really taking pleasure from all of your senses will then absolutely enhanced when you want to cross over into sexual pleasure? So how do we engineer our way back into a pleasure forward, pleasure filled life? And I one question, I think that comes up when we have these conversations is, you know, okay, but my sex life is fine. Like, it's fine. Why does it matter, and we talk about sex, sexual well being and life while being in that important connection between the two, and you can't ignore it. And that's why I think and of course, you can speak to this too, but working on it, and increasing your pleasure is not just for sexual wellbeing, it's for life well being

Christine: 46:30

as well. So your your project is trying to integrate pleasure. As a holistic, it's taking in that whole holistic point of view that you talked about in the beginning of the interview.

Unknown: 46:42

Yeah, it's, you know, there's a number of chemicals that are released in our bloodstream, when we're having sex, we're having pleasure in it. And we aren't leaving leading a healthy life if we're not having those pleasures in our bodies. So sex is a really important avenue into achieving that. Whether it's through intercourse, or kissing, or just touching each other's bodies, those senses are really important. For survival, there's so many health benefits to pleasure. I mean, it decreases all of the feel good hormones that it releases, when you're engaging in something that's pleasurable, you lose the sense of time, you know, and all that kind of stuff, because you're just, you're just sort of getting like a pleasure trance. And I don't really mean like a drug induced state. But it's your body is all the health benefits of leading a more pleasurable life, having nothing to assess. That's all I have no judgment. Unless it's an misinformed or under informed choice. Well, then you

Christine: 47:49

can choose to not want to engage in sexual activity, but we shouldn't choose to not want pleasure, right? Pleasure is such a bigger word

Unknown: 47:58

than sexual pleasure, which I think is a really great submit that we've uncovered. You know, we always debunk myths. That's the structure of our episodes, but the myth that pleasures reserved for sex only, I think that's a myth that we've really successfully debunked here. And that you have every opportunity to build your skills to experience pleasure. So how are

Christine: 48:18

people that are listed is going to find you at the pleasure movement?

Unknown: 48:22

So I'm a pleasure movement.com. I'm building my Instagram account and Gosh, darn it, that is just the hardest thing and most most, I'm so challenged, but I am gonna pleasure. Yes. And I'm building that through Elizabeth Lynwood. That's my that's my marker. And we're in under construction for pleasure engineering, to just make it more more simple and fun to read. So pleasure, engineering, pleasure, movement.com. And then we're just you know, Elizabeth at pleasure movement, and Dan, at pleasure engineer.com. So I have pleasure engineer right now. But when we decided to come together on that, that was pleasure engineering. So that's the whole process. Zero, I'm just doing coaching stuff with that. Very cool. Thank you for so much of your time. See you after all these years. Oh, and hopefully we'll see in person too.

Shannon: 49:23

So the myth today was that sex isn't a learned skill. Sex is not a natural Act, or that you're either mindblowingly incredible embed or you're just not.

Christine: 49:35

But the research and the experts support that sex can be learned skills can be learned. You can learn about your body, you can learn about your partner's partner's body, and in fact, you can get better at it. What a fun skill to learn. And as always, as we always talk about on our show, better sexual experiences come from better communication, understanding consent and boundaries. Is and of course working together with your partner or partners. So that everyone knows how to give and get what they really, really want.

Shannon: 50:07

Practice might not make perfect, but it definitely makes pleasure.

Unknown: 50:10

So that's another myth put to bed.

Shannon: 50:14

Thanks so much for tuning in. And remember to keep listening to new episodes of sex ed debunked bi weekly, and give us a follow on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at sex ed debunked. We'll be back every other week with full episodes and posting our new Quick and Dirty video series on our offerings.

Christine: 50:30

And those quick and dirty videos will just be little snapshots of what current events or perhaps current research that you can just stay up to speed so to speak.

Shannon: 50:39

I remember share your mess with us. We don't always want to hear the myths that you want to debunk. There's always more that we can debunk in this world. Thanks for listening, we'll talk to you soon.

Christine: 50:56

Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex Ed debunked. During the course of our podcast, we have limited time together, which means that unfortunately, many identities groups and movements may not be represented each week. The field of sexuality and gender orientations, identities and behaviors are changing growing rapidly, and we remain committed to being as inclusive as possible.

Shannon: 51:18

Please remember that all of us, including us are learning in this area and may occasionally slip up. We ask that we all continue to be kind to one another so that we can create a truly inclusive and accepting environment. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us at sex ed debunked on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Sex Ed debunked is produced by trailblaze media along with myself Shannon Curley and Christine curly. From trailblaze media our engineering is handled by Ezra winters